Re: [bpfk] Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.

[Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>]

On 8/14/2019 7:24 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Not quite directly relevant to this, but also regarding hyphens:  I 
> recall long LONG ago, when I was making a lujvo of vofli+litru, (to 
> express just "flying along"; it looks like vofli alone would have worked 
> okay, but it may have had a different place structure then, or maybe I 
> just didn't realize it.  Not the point), with the rafsi -voi- plus 
> -li'u-, obviously I need a consonant hyphen to get the required 
> consonant cluster, but the rules stipulated that it *had* to be -r-, 
> thus, voirli'u. which at least to my articulatory organs felt quite 
> awkward.  It winds up being closer to 4 syllables than 3; the -r- 
> becomes vocalic, or nearly so.  Not so if I had been allowed to say 
> *voinli'u.  Is there a reason to forbid giving the speaker a choice 
> regarding the consonant-hyphen, given that there are only two(?) allowed 
> anyway?

The original reason for having a rule on which consonant to use was so 
that there would be a rule, and words would be spelled one canonical way 
that could be implemented by computer (CLL section 4.11).  The rule also 
required use of the shortest form by a specific scoring algorithm 
(section 4.12).  The lujvo-making and scoring algorithm predates the 
split between TLI Loglan and Lojban - JCB and I formulated it in May 1986.

Historically, however, some people wanted to not have to use the 
specific scoring algorithm, and we now recognize multiple spellings of 
the "same word" can exist using longer rafsi choices (e.g. voflylitru). 
So I personally have no problem with using a different hyphen. I don't 
think the morphology algorithm gives a problem (other than the general 
rule that fu'ivla space is to be exclusive of lujvo space, which might 
technically cause someone to think that voinli'u was a fu'ivla because 
if it were a lujvo it would be voirli'u).

I think at the time, i actually liked the idea of having the hyphen 
vocalized as a separate syllable, but that is probably personal aesthetics.

A formal change to allow this (and to state it as such in CLL) should 
still require official approval by LLG (either a byfy-like group or the 
Board.

lojbab

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