From mattarn@123.net Mon Apr 18 11:09:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: mattarn@123.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22461 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2005 18:09:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2005 18:09:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mole.e-mol.com) (65.169.135.18) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Apr 2005 18:09:44 -0000 Received: from mail.123.net (nobody@new.e-mol.com [65.169.135.18]) by mole.e-mol.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j3II9hTd006634 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:09:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:09:43 -0400 Message-Id: <200504181809.j3II9hTd006634@mole.e-mol.com> To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050415193816.GG13636@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20050414194642.GR15911@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20050414201420.GT15911@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20050415193816.GG13636@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: e-mol.com, e-mail online X-From: mattarn@mail.123.net Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: 65.169.135.18 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Matt Arnold Reply-To: mattarn@123.net Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {zdile} mi na nelci zo bai X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117354497 X-Yahoo-Profile: nemorathwald Status: O Content-Length: 1262 Lines: 55 I love this poem! It must be set to music now. But what genre? -Matt rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org wrote: >No response at all? I was expecting at least a giggle from xorxes. >Or ARJ. :-) > >-Robin > >On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 01:14:20PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> Better version; only the third stanza is changed, and it was totally >> re-written. >> >> -Robin >> >> mi na nelci zo bai >> mi cu nelci zo mai >> .e zo nai .e zo doi .e zo cai >> >> ku'i le rempai >> poi finti zo bai >> .e zo cau .e zo mau .e zo rai >> >> se catra mi .ai >> te va'u je kai >> lo ka mi ba tcetce gleki sai > >-- >http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ >Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" >Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/ > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _______________________________________________________ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com From opi_lauma@yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 03:34:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64515 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 10:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 10:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.207.118) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 10:34:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 24383 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Apr 2005 10:33:11 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Message-ID: <20050419103311.24381.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.2.216.130] by web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:33:11 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:33:11 -0700 (PDT) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Originating-IP: 68.142.207.118 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Opi Lauma Subject: na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1) selbri2 ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=216990827 X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma Status: O Content-Length: 464 Lines: 16 Hello, is it right that { na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1) selbri2 } or may be { na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1 selbri2) }? For example, {mi na'e sutra tavla} means that it is not true that I speak fast (an it is not clear whether I speak at all), or it means that I speak and I speak not fast? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From opi_lauma@yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 03:43:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95623 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 10:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 10:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.207.124) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 10:43:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 27412 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Apr 2005 10:42:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Message-ID: <20050419104222.27410.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.2.216.130] by web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:42:21 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:42:21 -0700 (PDT) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Originating-IP: 68.142.207.124 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Opi Lauma Subject: To be polite in lojban. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=216990827 X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma Status: O Content-Length: 323 Lines: 14 Hello, Can you tell me how to say in lojban {Hello}, {Goodbye}, {Thanks}, {Pleas}, and {Excuse my}. Can I just say {mi rinsa}, {mi ckire do}, and so on? Thank you. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From yann.ledu@noos.fr Tue Apr 19 06:15:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: yann.ledu@noos.fr X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88698 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 13:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 13:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pm-mx5.mx.noos.fr) (195.46.220.209) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 13:15:46 -0000 Received: from m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr (m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr [81.67.70.148]) by pm-mx5.mx.noos.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC6D26E3E; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:15:44 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:15:44 +0200 (CEST) X-X-Sender: yann@neuron.noos.fr To: Opi Lauma Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050419103311.24381.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050419103311.24381.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: 195.46.220.209 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Yann Le Du Subject: Re: [lojban] na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1) selbri2 ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=166479209 X-Yahoo-Profile: yldjtb Status: O Content-Length: 508 Lines: 21 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Opi Lauma wrote: > > Hello, > > is it right that { na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e > selbri1) selbri2 } or may be { na'e selbri1 selbri2 = > (na'e selbri1 selbri2) }? > > For example, {mi na'e sutra tavla} means that it is > not true that I speak fast (an it is not clear whether > I speak at all), or it means that I speak and I speak > not fast? Short scope, so (non fast) talk. For more, see : http://lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter5.html#e12d4 -- mi'e .ian.xek. From yann.ledu@noos.fr Tue Apr 19 06:27:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: yann.ledu@noos.fr X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80040 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 13:27:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 13:27:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pm-mx6.mx.noos.fr) (195.46.220.208) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 13:27:17 -0000 Received: from m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr (m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr [81.67.70.148]) by pm-mx6.mx.noos.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359C4269BD for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:27:16 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:27:16 +0200 (CEST) X-X-Sender: yann@neuron.noos.fr Cc: Lojban In-Reply-To: <20050419104222.27410.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050419104222.27410.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: 195.46.220.208 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Yann Le Du Subject: Re: [lojban] To be polite in lojban. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=166479209 X-Yahoo-Profile: yldjtb Status: O Content-Length: 409 Lines: 23 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Opi Lauma wrote: > > Hello, > > Can you tell me how to say in lojban {Hello}, > {Goodbye}, {Thanks}, {Pleas}, and {Excuse my}. You can use vocatives : {coi} for "hello" {co'o} for "goodbye" {ki'e} for "thanks" {pe'u} for "please" {ta'a} for "excuse me" (depends on context really) see : http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less12voc.html -- mi'e .ian.xek. From opi_lauma@yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 10:14:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99060 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 17:13:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 17:13:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.207.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 17:13:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 49756 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Apr 2005 17:13:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Message-ID: <20050419171357.49754.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.2.216.130] by web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:13:56 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Originating-IP: 68.142.207.127 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Opi Lauma Subject: Re: na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1) selbri2 ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=216990827 X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma Status: O Content-Length: 317 Lines: 15 > Short scope, so (non fast) talk. And what I need to do if I want to make negation of two selbri, i.e. na'e (selbri1 selbri2), non (fast talk), for example? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From yann.ledu@noos.fr Tue Apr 19 10:29:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: yann.ledu@noos.fr X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83549 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2005 17:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2005 17:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pm-mx5.mx.noos.fr) (195.46.220.209) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 2005 17:29:20 -0000 Received: from m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr (m148.net81-67-70.noos.fr [81.67.70.148]) by pm-mx5.mx.noos.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0352D26E35; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:29:14 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:29:13 +0200 (CEST) X-X-Sender: yann@neuron.noos.fr To: Opi Lauma Cc: Lojban In-Reply-To: <20050419171357.49754.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050419171357.49754.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: 195.46.220.209 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Yann Le Du Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: na'e selbri1 selbri2 = (na'e selbri1) selbri2 ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=166479209 X-Yahoo-Profile: yldjtb Status: O Content-Length: 451 Lines: 20 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Opi Lauma wrote: > >> Short scope, so (non fast) talk. > > And what I need to do if I want to make negation of > two selbri, i.e. na'e (selbri1 selbri2), non (fast > talk), for example? As I wrote in my last email, see the link : http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less12voc.html The solution is to use {ke} for grouping tanru (phrase compounds) : mi na'e ke sutra tavla ke'e do -- mi'e .ian.xek. From opi_lauma@yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 08:43:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44567 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2005 15:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Apr 2005 15:43:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.207.127) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Apr 2005 15:43:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 55854 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Apr 2005 15:43:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Message-ID: <20050421154351.55852.qmail@web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.2.216.130] by web32113.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:43:51 PDT Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Originating-IP: 68.142.207.127 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Opi Lauma Subject: {x1 x2 = x2 co x1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=216990827 X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma Status: O Content-Length: 929 Lines: 28 coi I would like to ask new question. Is it right that {selbri1 selbri2} = {selbri2 co selbri1}? For example it should be right if selbri1 = {cmalu} and selbri2 = {ckule}. {cmalu ckule} = {ckule co cmalu}, isn't? However, I am not sure that {nanla ckule} = {ckule co nanla}. I have supposition, that if we divide selbri by classes which will satisfy different rules of transformation we will get classes which will correspond to substantive, verbs and adjective. For example {cmalu} and {nanla} should belong to different classes because the first of them sutisfy {x1 x2 = x2 co x1} and the second one does not. So, may be lojban also has different part of speech (however not explicitly). May be this parts come not from grammar but from meaning? mu'o mi'e .opilaumas __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ryanpatgray@yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 18:47:52 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ryanpatgray@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5106 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 68.57.0.97 From: "Ryan Gray," Subject: Something Wittgenstein wrote ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=158603219 X-Yahoo-Profile: ryanpatgray Status: O Content-Length: 975 Lines: 29 In Culture and Value Wittgenstein made an interesting point. He wrote: "Philosophers who say: 'after death a timeless state will begin', or: 'at death a timeless state begins', and do not notice that they have used the words 'after' and 'at' and 'begins' in a temporal sense, and that temporality is embedded in their grammar." or if having the origingal German helps: "Die Philosophen, welche sagen: >>nach dem Tod wird ein zeitloser Zustand eintreten<<, oder: >>mit dem Tod tritt ein zeitloser Zustand ein<<, und nicht merken, dass sie im zeitlichen Sinne >>nach<< und >>mit<< und tritt ein<< gesagt haben, und, dass die Zeitlichkeit in ihrer Grammatik liegt." Whether or not you agree or disagree with Wittgenstein or the people he is mentioning, how would one say: "after death a timeless state will begin", or: "at death a timeless state begins" in Lojban and would you be able to do so without making the mistake Wittgenstein is talking about? Thanks, Ryan