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[lojban-beginners] Re: tanru/lujvo for [name] type of thing?


Am Mittwoch, 12.02.03 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Robin Lee Powell:


I would use "le si'o gasnu le logji nu telsei da de", because othwise
you're doing seperators.
Yes, that's the idea. I am not really saying that da and de are different or appart. I jam a seperator in between them:-) But that seperator is actually not an argument of the brivla I define, so I should probably stay with the event of seperating. 


		gi'e snigau fi da kei
	le zgana se zukte ku
		ce'o le sniselgau be fi da ku


The sign with meaning da?


Maybe I should do without da and de?

The Instructions in Laws of Form are (chapter 2, page 3f):

Construction:	Draw a distinction.
"Content: Call it the first distinction. Call the space in which it is drawn the space severed or cleft the sides of the distinction or, alternatively, the spaces, states, or contents distinguished by the distinction.
Intent: Let any mark, token or sign be taken in any way with or with regard to the distinction as a signal. Call the use of any signal its intent. 

[...]
Knowledge: Let a state distinguished by the distinction be marked with a mark [not in unicode] of distinction. Let the state be known by the mark. Call the state the marked state.
Form: Call the space cloven by any distinction, together with the entire content of the space, the form of the distinction. Call the form of the first distinction the form.
Name: Let there be a form distinct from the form. Let the mark of distinction be copied out of the form into such another form. Call any such copy of the mark a token of the mark. Let any token of the mark be called as a name of the marked state. Let the name indicate the state." 

Let me try this:

.i ca'e lu luman zei nunzga li'u cu brivla
	le si'o gasnu le logji nunsei
		gi'e snigau fi le se nunsei kei
	le zgana se zukte ku
		ce'o le sniselgau be fi le se nunsei ku
		ce'o le nu'o sniselgau be fi le te nunsei ku
		ce'o le zgana poi ciste fi lo luman zei nunzga vau
	la lojban




		ce'o le nu'o sniselgau be fi de ku
		ce'o le zgana poi ciste fi lo luman zei nunzga


The observer which is a system among components the luman observations?


Yes, It's a theory about systems not about people :-)
Usually Sociology differentiates between masses of people and individual people. Luhmann differentiates between Kommunication-type-of-Observation-Systems and Mental-type-of-Observation-Systems. Both types of Observations are luman zei nunzga, but kommunication nunzga are different from Mental nunzga. Kommunications can be observed in ways that don't make much sense for thoughts. You can either talk or shut up, but you don't have a choice to think or not think -- so you don't need to be a philosopher to be able to wonder why someone said something instead of keeping quiet but you usually don't ask yourself: I just thought something. Why did I Think?
.i lo'i cusku luman zei nunzga cu luman zei nunzga le luman zei nunzga be le se cusku bei le luman zei nunzga be le cusku bei le te cusku 


I've seen essentially no attempts to define lojban words in lojban,
though, so take anything anyone says about this with a grain of salt.


Defining and redefining words really is half of the work in building
and explaining theories. If you do the definitions in natural
languages, you really don't make use of the strengths of lojban. So it
seems kind of strange to me that this is not done more often.
Not a lot of people have used lojban to define and explain theories yes. 
8)


With this definition I can then say e.g. (if I have not screwed up):

.i brode cei luman zei nunzga

.i zo censa selbo'e fi le skeci'e na.e le lijdyci'e po'e


"holy" is observationally marked to the science-system <-NOT and the
religious system.


(holy vs. (unholy or secular or whatever) is a difference that science
is blind to and religion alone can make)


My translation assumes that you meant fo; as it is it would be

"holy" is observationally marked, unmarked is the science-system <-NOT
and the religious system.


.i la saske cu velbo'e zo jetnu po'o enai zo melbi


Since is an observational system which marks truth only and not beauty.


(science is a system that marks things as being "true" and not as
"beautiful")


In both cases, you don't want zo, you want le ka.
I am dealing only with tokens called by names all the time. And furthermore I have specifically defined X2 and X3 as symbols. So "zo" or "lu'e" seem to be the obvious choices. 

Maybe still another definition might do better:

.i ca'e lu luman zei nunzga li'u cu brivla
	le si'o gasnu le logji nunsei
		gi'e snigau fi le se nunsei kei
	le zgana se zukte ku
		ce'o lo se nunsei ku
		ce'o lo nu'o te nunsei ku
		ce'o le zgana poi ciste fi lo luman zei nunzga vau
	la lojban
Here I talk about things (that may have existed before any velbo'e) acting as marks and not about tokens for marks. Not sure yet if that's good or bad... 

But now I can easily talk about:
.i luman zei nunzga le luman zei nunzga be le ka jaigau zukte kei le luman zei nunzga be le zukte 


.i la brode ganlo ciste goi ko'a cu velbo'e da poi ko'a ka'e velbo'e
ke'a ku'o de poi ko'a na ka'e velbo'e ke'a .ijanai ko'a velbo'e lu'e
ko'a


That named something-closed-system is an observational system marking
things such that it is able to mark them, and not marking things which
it is not able to mark them, ONLY IF it is an observatinonal system
which marks a symbol for itself.


(The operationally closed system observes the difference of
observations it can make vs. those it can not make. If it can't do
that It can't refer to itself)


I don't think janai is what you wanted, but then I'm bat with only-if.
I'm fairly certain you didn't want lu'e.  I'm also fairly certain you
don't want le.
I should not have used luman zei nunzga as an operation for a generic closed system in the first place. When we observe systems we tend to talk about them like they are velbo'e. But most Systems are more limited in the way they can linke their operations. 


Again, I'm fairly certain you don't want la.
I have not got used to the default being "le" and not something that seems to imply "lo" all the time. So I still tend to overdo it a little bit ;-) 

Bye,
   Jan.

--
Jan Pilgenroeder
Theaterstr. 59
52062 Aachen