[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [lojban-beginners] Why do selbri imply place structure?



On 8/19/2016 11:13 AM, collin.damskov@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know a whole lot about lojban, but it seems to me that it would
be difficult to learn simply because each selbri has its own implied
place structures. Is there no way to encode place structure by using a
particle or something without reducing grammatical ambiguity? Why do it
this way instead of something that doesn't require such intense
memorization of place structures? Am I missing something important here?


selbri place structures, which are ideosyncratic to each selbri (with some patterns among related selbri, and fairly systematic patterns for selbri compounds)

correspond fairly closely in function if not in nature with

English prepositions, the meaning of each is ideosyncratic to each verb in which they are attached (with some patterns among related verbs, although it can be hard to learn and recognize these patterns as part of learning English), with the complication that any given verb may have multiple meanings, wherein the preposition changes meaning in a different context even for the same word.

No matter what method is used, prepositions, place structures, or something else, there is the need to encode/associate phrases/clauses with the main predicate/verb/core of the sentence. The variety of encodings and associations that are needed are inherent to the context of the sentence, and relatively independent of the language that has to communicate those associations.

Lojban can attach sumti (phrases) using particles like prepositions, but for the most useful (those defined by the place structure), the speaker has the option of doing without. Thus what you are seeing as a weakness that replaces a system you are comfortable with, it is actually a strength that adds to what you are comfortable with. But of course the most common and useful attachings for any given selbri are the ones tied to the place structure, so beginners rarely see Lojban sentences with particle tags that correspond to English prepositions.

Now it turns out that English, in addition to prepositions, has for some words prepositionless attachings that work like place structures. An easy example is "John gives the book to Mary" or "John gives to Mary the book", or "John gives Mary the book". The first two have a preposition attaching the one of the three phrases, and the last one looks like a Lojban selbri with no particles. So Lojban isn't actually much different from English for some sentences.

And in English (and most though not all other natural languages), in the typical sentence, there is no particle attaching the subject to the verb/predicate, and thus ALL normal English sentences are partially like Lojban sentences, but only with the first (subject) phrase. And really it is no harder to learn Lojban place structures (with and without tags) than the English "phrase-attachment structures" (with or without prepositions).

lojbab


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.