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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban



"Lojban: the language where no one ever knows whether what he says is grammatical, and,if it is, whether it means what he intended." is apparently even more true now than it was nearly 30 years ago when it was first proposed. Even monoparsing, basically the only reason for Lojban's existence, is more in doubt now than it was even back in the early days of CLL (well, getting the right parse, at least; getting a unique one is easy). All the Baroque excrescences on the simple system JCB tossed away 60+ years ago seem to have done the opposite of helping.  And clearly learning Lojban has not helped to make people more rational or logical or even sensible.

pycyn
 

On Monday, November 6, 2017, 9:01:04 AM CST, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:




Em segunda-feira, 6 de novembro de 2017, <sukender1@gmail.com> escreveu:
[side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer and links ;-) ]

Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.
Yes, I perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause.

Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I never saw a set of rules accepted by 100% of people!
  • Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones. People disagree on many, but also often agree on core ones.
  • Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However, enforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more effective. They're like a common language.
  • Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very own" way to spell words, or organize sentences...
For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very short history on that language), I think all must agree on some unique version, and accept the debate to make it evolve, and accept that not all proposals will fit in, and that reintegration of proposals may take months or years.

As you can see this is unlikely to happen since people like to fork but...

you have CLL. It contains all the rules needed and makes the language functional.

If you read it all and say "I want to speak something else " that's okay. For now there is no document like this book in the amount of information introduced for a speakable logical language.

Lojban is not in someone's head. It's been put on paper.
 
Said otherwise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...

By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do we want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or just a unique "jbo" language?
Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning Lojban if I had no hope of that.

Thanks again.

la .sykyndyr.




Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a écrit :
This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.
They started forking never completing any printed documentation of they were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tried to implement other changes including even the formal grammar.

When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequences of this situation.

But in spite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to produce any fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complete Lojban Language describes it.
E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.

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