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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban



PC, the only update to le/lo that I am aware of is 'xorlo', written up here: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/How_to_use_xorlo



----
Bob Slaughter
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Albert Einstein
"Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good." -- Pope Leo XIII, encyclical 'On Christians as Citizens'

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 12:29 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
A comment in a recent note suggests that folks have been diddling with {le} and {lo} yet again (still?).  As someone who devoted several pounds of paper (virtual, of course) to that issue over the last 40 years, I am curious to new hat the latest turn is.  When last I looked, {le x} was a term  that arbitrarily designed a node with a pragmatic (but not necessarily semantic ) link to x.  {lo x} designated the salient node in the matrix generated by part-whole on the set of xs.  What are the new wrinkles?
pycyn


On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 10:40:41 AM CST, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:




Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a écrit :
doi la .guskant.

Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!
My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to enter any board or committee.



BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is held on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by subscribing to the list:
You can even request the membership of LLG voting member.

 
Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without developer tools?



HTML version of what?
BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is held on Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes.


 
* Paralysis *
So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement" guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?



Yes.

 
It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom. That's not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions" and there is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to something better and organized?



I made some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but finally I did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them into the CLL:

(written in 2014)

(written in 2015)

(written in 2016)


 
You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enough time for the committee to work on proposals?
  • If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above)?
  • If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that language will evolve?



Some of the issues were discussed, I think enough, but not brought to voting. As for the others, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the problem is caused by the structure of the committee. 

 
* Funds *
As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely".
You know, some guy on the Facebook group (Сергей Ильинских) asked if "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At first I thought this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However, I feel now that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working on Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the game. Of course, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagine something like periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, and a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewards on the other hand. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed... But don't you think it is worth debating on this? This of course would be only some tools to help, and the current organizations would still be there and help.



At least in the current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards will be stuck. Rewards should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting is completely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always ignored. They were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting consists of roll call, voting for the board members, and voting for closing the meeting.


 
* Organizations *
An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there are 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if history may explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of all may be a signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each did; but FROM AFAR, it seems that all organizations share some common interests, and may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a single entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary companies", sharing a purely administrative section with some functional parts (ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and profitable?



I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiary companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was created by LLG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders' Group was created by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK, maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban.

Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban Coders' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioning responsibility of the unofficial contents.


 
I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as people discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in another "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty of materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be English, but that's not mandatory, I guess.

You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and spreading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication.



I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in English continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profit more from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the other members of BPFK think about it.

BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion as AED.


 
* [side note] *
Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills.
  • "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". But putting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome!
  • But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"?


I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of speech BAI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less than something involved in the meaning of the statement.

If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or {se me'a X} would be suitable.

In my _expression_, it should be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}:
li me'i .abu pi'e pa


 
  • My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2 instead of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!
    • Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu bo manri" would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre".
  • Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I understand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)".


By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo xauzma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, you are not wrong. I only want to let you know something better according to me."

 
ki'ecai



(You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for separation here, otherwise you are thanking you.)

 
la .sykyndyr.


mu'o mi'e la guskant
 

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