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Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban



Well, let’s see.
1.  No one is suggesting a lexed version of FOPL or HOIL as a language, although, as one who spoke one fairly regularly for thirty-some years, I can say that it is not too bad (certainly not worse than Lojban in the areas both cover).  The biggest problem is repetition, since you have to say everything the same way every time.  So, the first steps in deriving a language from  formulae, unequivocal repetition replacement: fusion and prowords, mainly. After that, the rest is icing.  Oh, and adding a bunch of conversational expressions.   
2.  The theory goes that every sentence in any language derives by a series of transformations from a semantic representation, viewed as a formula in an adequate HOIL.  A correct parse, then, is one that gets back to that original formula (up to the relevant logical equivalence). Practically, this seems to mean that the derivations involved are all biunique.  Of course, none of this discussion applies to Lojban, since it does not define its sentences against a semantic base (though, of course, it has one).
3.  The descriptions of languages used in the discussion of SWH are those of surface phenomena as described in the first half of the 20th century and bear very little relation to what a linguist might do today (one would hope). In particular, all sentences of all languages have the same sort of underlying representation and differ only in the selection of transformation used to get to them, so the SAE etc. classifications, have no profound reality.  Nor do they reflect different ways of viewing the world, as revealed in non-linguistic tests.  
4.  As noted, Nyaya Sanskrit is as formal a language as FOPL, just written in Sanskrit words not non-linguistic symbols. Spoken FOPL is in English (etc.) words but not the less formal for that. Nyaya could be symboized in a HOIL fairly easily, I think (I stopped that dissertation before I got that far, alas), so could be enfolded in Lojban, if Lojban were actually based on HOIL (or even a suitably extended version of FOPL). 
5.  I confess that, aside from constantly fiddling with minutiae, I have no idea what reformers have as a vision for Lojban 2.0 or whatever.  Does it still aim at the old goals, has it dropped some, has it added others, is it totally different? Of course, over the years even the goals of the CLL fundamentalists have become increasingly less clear as even they diddle with this cmavo or that, even this. selma’o or that.  All ultimately to no particularly interesting point, so far as I can see from what is floating around now.  

On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 6:15:37 AM CST, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:


* Sunday, 2017-11-12 at 12:55 +0100 - Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>:

> Incidentally, there is a work-in-progress piece of software that aim to
> translate back and forth between Lojban and a custom logical notation ; the
> project is called Tersmu: https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/

I should probably clarify that work on it isn't really in progress any
more, at least not by its original author (me). I'll try to maintain
it, but I can't imagine getting back to working on it seriously any
year soon. So I encourage anyone interested in developing the project
further to fork it.


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