[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [lojban] x2 of remna
- To: lojban@googlegroups.com
- Subject: Re: [lojban] x2 of remna
- From: mezohe <wow.jvs@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 13:06:39 +0200
- Arc-authentication-results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=M6+tSeX9; spf=pass (google.com: domain of wow.jvs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::429 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wow.jvs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
- Arc-authentication-results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=M6+tSeX9; spf=pass (google.com: domain of wow.jvs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::429 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wow.jvs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
- Arc-message-signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:content-language :in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:message-id:references:to :subject:from:sender:dkim-signature:dkim-signature; bh=MuocFCivwOPDht9KDXEYl62IXIJ73aVYQFDWTZGHgDE=; b=BpCIzZHqul9ZARfGN6uL2QMpi62q6cFJ8bDDnUshjvNylMDiahUrg5On/lq+Y2hDIj ohdPP+lN8RF4imbrw//4N6vYhXSoWMUcXWfUdr4w+dirHi1A/MMAj1qtEu4nk2FpRZEW G6VCTtw8DVq4LA4YQvYOu70FFRi055DvcUmNhIOgSi8IRx/RItFIGOuPnxeg/lRSGXL+ JbGca9YddMr0sdbLM6s23rhCV0o34V4PQ3eUWiY6toSxTJBD9SEUe+dd3IX3ZSYnAVMT f2+iiR0eEHedanl70m5geWGnc6xjyechnjTN0lMI0b8MGpjErCdS/Hkhda7gs4s5P/2Q ZqNA==
- Arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-language:in-reply-to:mime-version :user-agent:date:message-id:references:to:subject:from :dkim-signature; bh=Qbv9iNDJcv3MV8DVRd2Xb2RmRzb8WZ6jZut5x9jL3y4=; b=UXI96tKILUVeKPrVZT2PdSZDJseAdEBueHyu3tZqGzGhJNWFno9dslFSfGqDiHBrEi 9AfUlFt84gHgGKg17XYdxIpXWRfo30quiwUwELhGf/olLPdAJ1EvjveVuxNZ29Hg12Ht YPvQ/Y82aSKoPZpYJUcvEMKEhT6aspfM5Gv/+MeQ+WQmxKucVrl9FllbvB6fZguYuXPN 5SbVW/JYux5w6rfWs/0GpbWH7ShXHQObnMgJ1vdlUqC0DZwGj9gfo+BMdCZ6c+FUN8Hx ROM5HKOFAJ5ieM5WHrrW7BXcWAHfzGBFNGt3O4ZjYL7gfa55aR02MQ1H3QCBIFC3al34 GfjQ==
- Arc-seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1561028802; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=uE1ncaKnID51f5hQghltmxJxdHmaF4gurv5H9MCBu0HkYXgamopUsd5CAzogDH/wpt L0dOKcweXOB9SXRVNLzKhtSo+ht4w5jcThz4LEy2TQLUPZNxA7HRXMX+MRTl7jjTjYp2 w2hRP3Ro+DdEL6NNoBJay6MNFHojcHfXNXuXyf2fp9b173jjCIPMtrWn7uAegR4/4JGE VqpElizE+Ipy2qtGP8ACWufY4Yu+pRLxkbCIGE9g7npXIwxz9qmV6k3Pn6lbGzzQRZDI nwJNOTC+mh0NdsYZLSsYyvKbA1b+zXTtHz2wQgyHFpUEsgDuo3QNXDjGdmd4Ku7LRg20 aHeQ==
- Arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1561028801; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=rDQA8X5sBy0snMCNFJ2VUTkcKI0MFfhCQ+p+sPJcwnu6bVVy3I+OclZp9NnfKJ8Eoe uKKFrXsukgdk2Y3WtVbJSphIeyRGWnTDU1D4xT8gC2jkfJl7Qo19nCn1UVOGUhJY5DWm iHbXGnx+JPOQWwR1mrraUbd8oOuCJnyZ1tYT7VTBDfMnsnYuwSAVMMq8T0XoO2MLWycK AXnxsshjX118imRsnV3hlMAvx+cbXw9nZSOfnJ3sNmcqPNGK/c8ZQvDKF5vlnyzVPOlV 4eb1cTcpGckJzlr/BPgEoGPDFo01Uh3YKNzJay3fMtAxmIrRHsrXN0AbxN3Bwy9z+UnO ailA==
- Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:subject:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=MuocFCivwOPDht9KDXEYl62IXIJ73aVYQFDWTZGHgDE=; b=hCDR0LfJL21IQAtoH80iiPtGyFBr3tn9ckUumwUryWgXq0gN5DzQtUAF3tT+7GwMld gpR4PMafamXIbX2b4xea789EeP81kcHOV2uNLsX7Bh2KpVO/jfMLjGOqCXzaaH84j/xP BRjtDbuSjD98OoP1tutdIX8a69lZ+9CeYhd1L62rSCeXLUKrCHLU0cNN22YZCpN1aUoP 1CHTc9bOZKgAq9w3lipgLoLLpwnuTGeZVbHeu43HFq42IT6/yQ1isSkommmYArPLrZkj FHhIlhV63xcx7CbZl7Tk0w/q/LX1CqSE2pfvypPc2PQPih+KumhDzJfMb7ky/VKZocu9 hX/A==
- Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=MuocFCivwOPDht9KDXEYl62IXIJ73aVYQFDWTZGHgDE=; b=eS4Jhz6WM0ZmM43VBU1oBFnK9wvdWVu3DFeB2yu5FKeW1uW2gN9ubvPPhRQAoTVj4J orVcjN0DozB6WcwcPHMiFA3BZppijqZV/BTMlxuSSOa4055g7GLUlBzYyilF/ibnw0vP BaN/YnCa/GnJqwKqaDl9/qsL2zD2rJQqC6vxehzxMyYHHYwBvj5kxcEcgo2zhnj4cyEZ KyJ8VvBXyUYf9eqbXWvUHTKgMm9ZvPlzPhYaD1dPCNTonbhMPUOHArf0HTFiGX6IFkBB AmpstE8GFieQ7mavQzly1yNsIyogvJzRW0ft4ArCO7bmV3csA3FQQ2IJ6cKE5Yv761RD WeWg==
- In-reply-to: <3599730.Gzx9hWiHjm@mooncat>
- List-archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/lojba>
- List-help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
- List-id: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
- List-post: <https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
- List-subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
- List-unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, <https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>
- Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
- References: <3599730.Gzx9hWiHjm@mooncat>
- Reply-to: lojban@googlegroups.com
- Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
- User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1
2019-06-20 12:07 Pierre Abbat:
In the gimste, {remna} has no x2, unlike other words for kinds of organisms.
As several species are placed in the genus Homo, we should have a way to talk
about them. Should we use {remna} with x2 ({ta remna la .denisov.}, or {ta
remna la .aiutac.} using the Altai name for the cave), or make up another
word?
Pierre
Species places in taxon words make it impractical to correctly talk
about individuals in the same taxon that aren't in the exact same
species. Non-essential places in general are liabilities.
! so'i cakcinki cu xabju lo purdi
doesn't work because it expands to
! so'i cakcinki be zo'e cu xabju lo purdi [be zo'e bei zo'e]
zo'e is a constant; so'i can't scope over it. All this can mean is "many
beetles of the obvious species live in the garden"; nothing is said
about beetles of other species. And there does have to be a single
species zo'e refers to, since having it refer to multiple ones would say
for *each* beetle that it's a member of all the species.
In this case, there's a fairly simple way to get the intended meaning:
so'i cakcinki be su'o da cu xabju lo purdi
Many beetles, each of some species. Problem solved. But consider
! lo cakcinki poi xabju lo purdi cu dirba je se manci mi
where we have the same implicit zo'e -- "the beetles of that species
that live in the garden" --
! lo cakcinki be zo'e be'o poi xabju lo purdi
but in this case, even when we replace zo'e with a quantified variable,
there's no improvement, as there's no singular quantifier to scope over
it. (There can't be one if things like {lo jmaji} or {lo simxu} are to
mean anything!)
! lo cakcinki be su'o da be'o poi xabju lo purdi
If lo doesn't give us a singular quantifier, let's introduce one.
? lo poi'i ro me ke'a su'o da cakcinki poi xabju lo purdi
A constant such that each thing among it is a beetle of some species.
And that they live in the garden. Phew.
So now we have something likely to mean what was intended, but are
people ready to accept this kind of verbosity (twice as many syllables
as the English equivalent) into their everyday speech?
I'd be happy to lose all species places, and then some, in exchange for
not having to talk like that.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/be9b0515-2f0e-64da-b8cf-ba774164143a%40gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.