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Re: [lojban] x2 of remna
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- Subject: Re: [lojban] x2 of remna
- From: mezohe <wow.jvs@gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 14:46:41 +0200
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Where do you get the idea that zo'e is a constant? As I understand it, {mi
viska ci cakcinki} is equally true if I see three Japanese beetles (of which
there are many on the blackberry plants) or if I see a cocuyo, a scarab, and a
weevil.
xorxes, at least, intended for zo'e to be a constant [1]. zo'e
(especially explicit zo'e) as a variable would be problematic for
negation [2].
[1] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_gadri#Notes_2
[2] http://mail.lojban.org/lojban-list/msg47182.html
I’m pretty sure this is not how all this works. If a place isn’t invoked,
it doesn’t participate in the quantification; therefore, «so’i cakcinki cu
xabju lo purdi» has *unary* «cakcinki», so the correct meaning – ‘there are
many beetles living in the garden.’
In practice it does seem like unfilled places don't exist, although if
you ask people they'll usually say that there is something filling them,
most often zo'e [3-5], hence my slightly tongue-in-cheek outrage.
[3] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda#Elliptical_words
[4] https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/
[5] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons/2
Some will say unfilled places are zi'o, which is blessed with at least
two competing meanings, or that they are ambiguous between zo'e and zi'o.
zi'o1: remove the place, creating a new predicate that has nothing do to
with the removed place
zi'o2: remove the place on the surface by substituting {be su'oi da}
zi'o2 is, imo, only marginally better than zo'e, as it still takes only
one value when in a LO phrase.
zi'o1 is nice, but feels pragmatically odd in that when explicit, it's
supposed to make an utterance less specific by adding words to it, which
might give a weak implicature that {broda zi'o .e no da}. Though this is
just baggage from zo'e officially being default I think -- implicit
zi'o1 should be free of it.
la tersmu agrees:
purdi(c0); (so'i)x1:(cakcinki(_)). zvati(x1,c0)
(I wouldn't think tersmu has much to say here as it doesn't have a
dictionary of predicates' arities)
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