From lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx Thu Sep 2 19:57:43 1999 X-Digest-Num: 229 Message-ID: <44114.229.1261.959273825@eGroups.com> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:57:43 -0400 From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" 02 botany > >Questions: > >Do I understand correctly that the interpretations marked with (adjective:) >refer to the meanings of a gismu as a first component of a compound (tanru)? correct >I thought that any metaphoric usage is explicitely discouraged in lojban. >Still, I see many notes [metaphor: ...] in the dictionary. Metaphoric usage is discouraged 1) because most metaphors are culturally dependent and 2) because they make place structures less predictable. When the gismu list was made, predictability of place structures wasn't thought possible, so only issue 1) was important. For those gismu that have a specified "metaphor", we made some effort to see if the metaphorical usage was international and not just English, and also that the given object did not have a conflicting interpretation (for example, the "owl" suggests 'professorial', 'academic', or 'wise' in English, but represents 'death' in China, so we did NOT include a gismu for "owl" based on metaphorical potential). The use of "head" for the top part of something, however, seems quite international, so metaphors using "head" for "top" would be more acceptable in Lojban, than metaphors based on "owl". The primary words we figured might have metaphorical usage are body parts, plants, animals, and chemical elements. We also included "jade" and "lotus" specifically because they at least stereotypically seem to be commonly used in oriental (especially Chinese) metaphor, and we wanted to explicitly cater to that culture that we English speakers knew the least about. But I don't think we clearly decided on a particular metaphorical meaning. I think for the Russian list it is especially important to include the metaphorical definitions if Russians might use those words metaphorically in the indicated way. I believe for example, that I read a Russian poem where the "heart" was clearly associated with emotions, as in English, and thus if we listed "heart" as having a metaphorical linkage with emotionalism, there is some basis for saying that this metaphor might be understood internationally. Now with the fact that there already is a gismu for "emotion", such a metaphor is probably unnecessary. And with the preference against metaphors for place structure predictability reasons, I would expect "heart" to seldom be used for "emotion" in metaphor. However a poet like Michael Helsem seems to value using metaphors wherever he can permissibly get away with them, so I am not entirely unhappy that we have some remnants of the more metaphorical concept of Lojban tanru and lujvo still in the language. >lichens and mosses are very far apart. A lichen is hardly more then a mass >of symbiotic cells of a fungus and an alga. A moss is a highly organized >plant with many kinds of specialized cells, tissues, organs. In my English- >-Russian dictionary the word moss has two translations: 1. мох (=moss) with >remark (botanical) 2. лишайник (lichen) labelled as "colloquial". I have >impression that the lojban vocabulary has a deliberate "scientific" flavor, >so I would rather classify lichens as "mledi" (fungus, mold). The denotation is closer to that of mosses, and the concept was the mass of non-flowering greenery plants; you might also include ferns in this definition, but I think we were less sure that would hold. At least in older classifications (not sure of the current biology), while a lichen was a symbiote, it was a symbiote that was considered to be in the plant kingdom rather than the animal kingdom. Now we have 7 or 8 kingdoms worth of biological taxonomy, and I don't know that lichens are still considered plants. I know that algae are sometimes plants and sometimes in a separate kingdom, and that bacteria have a couple kingdoms all to themselves and are no longer considered animals. But Lojban gismu making was based on Loglan gismu making which dates back to 1950, when biological taxonomy seemed as fixed as the stars (which of course aren't fixed, so we should have known better zo'o). >"gurni" (grain): is it a mass or individual grain? Yes. We were non-specific. A lujvo would distinguish. When I comment like this on historical intentions for the gismu list, I will also send them to Lojban List where others can comment and/or be informed of those intentions. Tommy Whitlock, if he is actively reading the list, is the other person outside of Nora and myself who helped make the gismu list and might remember historical arguments. Jorge and others from non-English backgrounds can comment on the malglico that remains in my definitions, but it must be remembered that the original gismu list, while concerned about malglico, was also concerned with preserving commonality with JCB and his TLI version of Loglan for purposes of reconciliation. lojbab ---- lojbab ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS*** lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ " Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.