From xod@bway.net Sun Oct 31 22:46:45 1999
X-Digest-Num: 272
Message-ID: <44114.272.1519.959273825@eGroups.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:46:45 -0500
From: xod <xod@bway.net>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

At 10:40 AM -0500 10/31/99, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:


>To somewhere, via some route, goes everyone. (stolen from a Book chapter
>title)
>vs
>Everyone goes somewhere via some route.
>
>In both of these sentences, "everyone" is the subject, but in the first,
>"everyone" does not have scope precedence.


The former sentence can easily be interpreted as the second; that everyone
goes someplace, but all those someplaces are not necessarily the same
place. So I think they can be read as having the same scope.


>That you find ordered scope an affront is something I can understand; I
>felt the same way, having mastered the symmetry of SE conversion, when
>scope reared its ugly head and spoiled that symmetry.


Thanks! I wasn't sure if I was completely out of line.


>But the bottom line question is what you would have
>
>roda prami de
>and
>de se prami roda
>
>mean.
>
>You have to choose meanings for both of these sentences, and they can
>either mean the same thing or two different things. The status quo using
>logical scope is that they mean different things. If you decide based on
>symmetry that they must mean the same thing, then you still have a scope
>issue in deciding whether x1 or x2 takes precedence.


If, by default, de refers to a single entity, and not a different entity
for each da in ro da, then we have symmetry.

"Everybody loves Jake." Thus, "Jake is loved by everybody." A mapping that
maps each da to its own de could (and I think, should) be explicitly
specified.


If you decide that
>ordering is based on place number, both mean "Everybody loves
>somebody". Let us hypothetically accept this. Now what about "de selprami
>roda". By turning the tanru into a lujvo, the se conversion becomes
>implicit and the place numbers x1 x2 are no longer as if it were a
>conversion. (You can try to keep numbering them in the order of "prami",
>but this just makes confusion when you make even larger lujvo especially
>those with more than one gismu being converted.) Sooner or later something
>breaks. Alas. Symmetry fails.


I'm afraid I don't see how the symmetry can be broken by making a lujvo
with reordered places.

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1