From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Fri Sep 13 05:12:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 13 Sep 2002 12:12:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 82375 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2002 12:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Sep 2002 12:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailbox-7.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.107) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2002 12:12:10 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-68-189.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.68.189]) by mailbox-7.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 74F4B272E7 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:12:07 +0200 (DST) To: Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:13:43 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin XORXES: > I mean "I like chocolate", "that is like a sofa" and "that is a > picture of a boa". They don't mean "there ia some chocolate such > that I like it", "there is some sofa such that that is like it" > or "there is some boa such that that is a picture of it". To get > those latter meanings I would have to use {lo} instead of {lo'e}. > > I'm not sure why paradigm cases need to be in x1, but here are > some: {lo'e cinfo cu xabju le friko} "Lions live in Africa", > which is different from "some lions live in africa" (lo), > "all lions live in Africa" (ro), "most lions live in Africa" (so'e). > {lo'e mlatu cu kavbu lo'e smacu", "Cats catch mice", which is > different from saying that "some cats catch some mice", etc. If, as you have been wont to say, "mi nelci lo'e cakla" etc. can be aptly glossed as "I am a chocolate-liker", "That is a sofa- resembler"/"That is sofa-like", "That is a boa-depicter", then "lo'e cinfo cu xabji le friko" would be "Africa is lion-inhabited", which seems to me not the same as "The [generic] lion lives in Africa", though each of the two different meanings is a challenge to express adequately in Lojban. If "tu'o du'u ce'u da cinfo" is the way to refer to the Lion intension, I wonder if ways can be found to express all the meanings using "tu'o du'u ce'u da cinfo" rather than "lo'e", just for the sake of clarity. Then "lo'e" could be defined as an abbreviation of certain more longwinded Lojban forms. Excuse my having read this previous thread in only a desultory way -- I read your summary postings assiduously, but keeping track of the debates with pc I find very wearing. > Unfortunately we don't have the la-version of lo'e: > lo le la > lo'e le'e ?? > > But we can use {lo'e me la santas}. If you really wanted to fill the gap you could pick a spare cmavo -- {lai'e}, say. But I would rather abolish lo'e/le'e. Any cmavo about whose meaning there is virtually nil consensus, even after years upon years of discussion, should be binned. A lot of your debate with pc could be avoided if you eschewed the form {lo'e} and used an unassigned cmavo for your purposes instead. --And.