From robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR Fri Jan 29 02:57:54 1999
X-Digest-Num: 47
Message-ID: <44114.47.160.959273824@eGroups.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:57:54 +0200
From: Robin Turner <robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR>
Subject: Re: defining meanings of gismu

la stiv. cusku di'e

> Are there any principles used in the defining of gismu?
>
> I was looking at "bajra," which means:
>
> x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4.
>
> It seems to me the gismu would be a lot more useful if it meant something
> like:
>
> x1 runs for reason x2 at speed x3 using limbs x4 with gait x5.
>
> In fact, if "gait" could make the distinction between shuffling quickly,
> jogging, running or sprinting, then maybe it should be x2. But the reason
> for the running seems important; is it for exercize, training, a race? And
> the speed parameter might also help us see if it's jogging, sprinting, etc.
>
> The limbs part seems less important, usually obvious from context -- if it's
> a dog, it's on all four limbs, etc.
>
> The surface seems very unimportant to me. I don't know how others feel
> about it, but it seems to me when you run, you often do so on many different
> surfaces.
>
> So in the original gismu, it seems x2 and x3 are nearly or wholly
> unimportant, and x4 could be better replaced with a speed parameter which is
> both more specific and which conveys more meaning.
>
> To repeat, then, what are the principles that are used to define gismu? Why
> form a gismu one way and not another?

I too have occasionally been surprised at what was/wasn't considered important
enough to warrant a gismu place. Usually, though, the place structure is fairly
straightforward: it tends to be (using traditional grammatical terms)
nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, anything else.

As for "bajra", this has been held up (on the AUXLANG list) as an example of
arbitrary place-filling. I would be inclined to simplify it to

x1 runs on surface x2

I would keep "surface" assuming this includes places in general, and one may
want to be more specific than what is provided by the spatial tenses. I agree
"speed" is important, but, like "gait", it can be handled perefectly well by
tanru e.g. "sutra bajra"="sprint". The purpose for running does not require a
gismu place, since it can be handled with a "mu'i" phrase, or again by tanru
e.g. "kanro bajra" = "health-running" = "jogging (as exercise rather than
gait)".

In general, I actually think it's good that some gismu seem over-specified at
the moment, since when the baseline comes to an end, we will be able to see
which places are seldom if ever used, and quietly drop them, which is probably
easier than adding extra places to underspecified gismu. It's like the reverse
of cooking, where you add less salt than you think you'll need because you can
always add more (but you can't take it out!). With languages, it's probably
best to specify more than you think you'll need, because it's easier to drop
features than to add them.

co'o mi'e robin.