From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Oct 14 19:39:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 15 Oct 2002 02:39:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 65792 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2002 02:39:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2002 02:39:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Oct 2002 02:39:39 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 181Hgr-0002df-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:44:13 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181Hg8-0002dL-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:43:28 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181Hg4-0002dC-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:43:24 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g9F2lFGZ013261 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:47:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g9F2lFMF013260 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:47:14 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: x1 is of type x2 Message-ID: <20021015024714.GA13067@allusion.net> References: <20021015010104.GA11749@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2187 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 03:16:27AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: [...] > > > What is the difference between {tai} and {se kai}?=20 > >=20 > > tai isn't a ka. se kai gives you a quality found in the whatever, > > where tai says it is like some other thing in some quality. > > Something like: > >=20 > > mi tavla tai lo'e gerku > > I talk like a dog > >=20 > > mi tavla sekai leka ce'u jai fenki > > My talking exhibits the quality of it being frenzied > > I talk crazily >=20 > I can never remember what that nitcionic jai does. I keep on learning > & forgetting. (Oh I remember, it's somehow for sumti raising.) >=20 > Anyway, the examples can be swapped around: >=20 > mi tavla tai lo'e jai fenki > mi tavla se kai le ka ce'u gerku The meaning may be similar, but it is not exactly the same. Even if the only difference is just wording (and length). A better example is to try to change setai (or tetai, depending which definition of tamsmi is correct -- the ideal form place), or the vetai into kai. The x1 of tai that is usually used is another example of the ideal form, so it is more like mentioning another x1 of ckaji (note this isn't the same as tagging with just kai) than saying sekai. > Can we think of examples that make good sense only with tai and > others than make good sense only with se kai? mi tavla tai le gerku (since it isn't lo'e, you can't cheat by turning it into a ka. le says I talk like a *specific* dog. (don't double-cheat with something like sekai ce'u du le gerku, please)). Other than that I agree that there is probably overlap in terms of what can be expressed with the two. mu'o --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9q4GyDrrilS51AZ8RApQFAKDQJ4PAuIFhwn1QKz6EnBDEwgNeoQCfYR20 smYkU6IrnDtEUAf28AsC0I8= =apHU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3--