From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Tue Dec 03 16:53:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 4 Dec 2002 00:53:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 35402 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 00:53:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2002 00:53:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Dec 2002 00:53:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18JNmo-0002SU-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:53:10 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18JNmi-0002SC-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:53:04 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmsmtp02.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.112]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18JNmc-0002Rp-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:52:58 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-60-149.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.60.149]) by lmsmtp02.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EDF5B728 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:52:25 +0100 (MET) To: Subject: [lojban] Re: Why we should cancel the vote or all vote NO (was RE: Official Statement- LLG Board approves new baseline policy Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:54:33 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021203160002.GA50086@allusion.net> X-archive-position: 2986 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Jordan: > > I have long suspected that JCB was so pissed off at you not just for > > splitting the language but for doing it with such poor taste and poor > > discernment (from his perspective, at least). I do think that the > > average person who knows neither language would, if faced with a > > page of Loglan and a page of Lojban, find the Loglan somewhat pleasing > > and the Lojban somewhat monstrous. Certainly my aesthetic judgements > > are thus. So your crime was not only apostasy but also perversion > > So how about you go speak loglan? > > Seriously though, I've seen loglan text, and it's disgusting. It > contains capital letters, periods at end of sentence, etc. Maybe > this is a touch of xod's "sapir-whorfism" in me, but to me it looks > way too much like a european language (i.e., english) > > If you meant that someone who speaks one such language would find > it more pleasing because it looks more familiar, I might agree with > that. I don't see what your point would be though I mean two separate things, really. The negative aesthetic reaction to the punctuation/typography is simply due to its failure to conform to the prevailing conventions and aesthetic traditions in the use of roman script. For some people that's good; for others it's bad. The second thing involves reactions to the look/sound/feel/shape of the words. I don't think that the hypothetical Average Person I mentioned above is basing their judgements strictly on similarity to their native language, but it is possible that in some deeper ways one native tongue influences aesthetic judgements differently from another. I don't know of any published research, but I did supervise a dissertation on the topic, which found that aesthetic judgements are closely similar across speakers of different languages, though all the speakers surveyed spoke European languages. But I suspect that the judgements are probably likely to be universal: they favour sonority and simplicity (avoidance of consonant clusters, especially ones with two obstruents; avoidance of marked segments), and seems implausible to me that an aesthetic preference for sonority and simplicity is a specifically paneuropean trait. --And.