From lojbab@lojban.org Thu Dec 05 18:10:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Dec 2002 02:10:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 45281 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2002 02:10:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2002 02:10:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao02.cox.net) (68.1.17.243) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2002 02:10:18 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021206021015.KQGC2203.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:10:15 -0500 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20021205204327.03140b30@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:00:54 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Loglan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 07:05 PM 12/5/02 +0000, And Rosta wrote: > >>> Steven Belknap 12/05/02 12:05pm >>> >#On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 07:18 PM, And Rosta wrote: >#> Robin: >#>> The >#>> *instant* I discovered that Loglan was copywritten, I dropped it in >#>> favour of lojban >#> >#> Yes, that is a good reason. (I am assuming you mean what I would call >#> "copyrighted" and not "copywritten".) I have never seen a TLI >#> statement of its position on copyright, though. ># >#Why is that a good reason? It may have spooked the learly lojbanistani, >#but an attorney friend with considerable expertise in intellectual >#property rights tells me that such a claim would be laughed out of a >#courtroom. Alas, there is nothing certain in law but the expense. As >#And points out, there isn't any vocabulary copyright statement in the >#TLI materials. > >I gather from frenzied debate about the copyright of invented languages, >especially Tolkien's, that the question is VERY unclear and has not been >settled by any actual court cases (the Loglan one being a trademark >suit). The mainstream opinion seemed to be that copyright wouldn't >extend to *using* an invented language, but it might extend to compiling >grammars and dictionaries of it, though those activities might still fall >under fair use. You do not need a copyright statement in order to have copyright. All materials are presumed copyrighted unless explicitly placed in the public domain. The presence or absence of a copyright notice affects whether and how much damages can be claimed from a copyright violation. Actually there are precedents on language copyrights, though in the realm of computer languages. In general they ensured the death of the language in question. However, before JCB had asserted all these intellectual property claims, he had repeatedly published public statements effectively placing the language in the public domain, or at least granting unrestricted permission to use the language, so Nora and I had no doubt that we could win. Copyright, it turned out, was a poor arena to challenge JCB in. First of all, the laws in Canada and the UK on copyright were MUCH more favorable to an author than in the US, so that we might have had to fight the battle multiple times. Furthermore, even in the US, it is possible to copyright a dictionary and even a wordlist, but the question of whether use of a list violates that copyright gets tricky. One problem is that a copyright suit would have been in the regular court system, and the legal costs are MUCH higher there, probably $50,000 and up. The trademark case, cost us $20K in legal fees and that only because JCB appealed the decision. It was a sure win for us (the law and the facts were entirely favorable to us), and it was (as it turned out to be) a way to demonstrate to JCB that legal challenges were not the way to work out our problems. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org