From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Dec 07 12:28:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Dec 2002 20:28:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 98100 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2002 20:28:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2002 20:28:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2002 20:28:36 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KlYy-0007fg-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:28:36 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KlYs-0007fN-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:28:30 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.intrex.net ([209.42.192.250]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KlYn-0007fE-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:28:25 -0800 Received: from Craig [209.42.200.12] by smtp.intrex.net (SMTPD32-5.05) id A9F13B700B0; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:28:33 -0500 To: Subject: [lojban] Re: Aesthetics Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:28:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20021207202246.GA15698@allusion.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Declude-Sender: raganok@intrex.net [209.42.200.12] X-Note: Total weight is 0. Whitelisted X-archive-position: 3231 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: raganok@intrex.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: "Craig" From: "Craig" Reply-To: raganok@intrex.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out >> >> Presumably And was indending to replace them with another letter? >> >> >Like and H or a Q, possibly pronounced like "theta"? >> >> This would be useful in, eg, translating Twain - it allows us to spell out >> alternative pronunciations. But in normal writing, it would only be >> divisive; I dislike h for ' because [h] is not an optimal pronunciation and >> /h/ pronounced [T] is just crazy. >Why is [h] not an optimal pronunciation for '? (Yes I know the >title of the thread is 'aesthetics', but you seem to be implying >there's some kind of reason). Because there is a greater phonic contrast between [T] and [f] or [s] than between [h] and [x]. Of course, even [T] isn't optimal if you can pronounce certain other sounds. A Welsh ll, for example, is a lateral fricative; this is an acceptable ' sound. Since Lojban has only one lateral sound, l, which does not *need* to be pronounced laterally, the most contrasting pronunciation would be a velar l (like in English) and a lateral '. I use [T], but only because I can't get the ll sound.