From sbelknap@UIC.EDU Tue Jan 07 10:59:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Jan 2003 18:59:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 7417 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2003 18:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jan 2003 18:59:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2003 18:59:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18VyxC-0003aK-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:59:58 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Vywi-0003Zw-00; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:59:28 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from birch.cc.uic.edu ([128.248.155.162]) by digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Vywa-0003Zf-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:59:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 22508 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2003 18:59:15 -0000 Received: from cis5044.uicomp.uic.edu (HELO uic.edu) (128.248.250.44) by birch.cc.uic.edu with SMTP; 7 Jan 2003 18:59:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:58:52 -0600 Subject: [lojban] Re: open and save Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org In-Reply-To: <20030107180540.GX3954@digitalkingdom.org> Message-Id: <10788F54-2272-11D7-97F6-000393629ED4@uic.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-archive-position: 3734 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sbelknap@uic.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Steven Belknap Reply-To: sbelknap@uic.edu X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810567 On Tuesday, January 7, 2003, at 12:05 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 11:57:21AM -0600, Steven Belknap wrote: >> The use of the lojban word for a computer file is not >> malglico. The analogy of computer file to a paper file is a >> language-independent extension of the concept of file to cyberspace. > > That is *such* incredible crap. There are hundreds of languages that > don't even have the *concept* of a file folder. Perhaps Maori does not have the concept of a file folder. Anybody who lives in a modern industrial state must deal with files. > > And dacru isn't a file in that sense anyways, it's a drawer. A > *physical* drawer. A *sliding* *compartment*, for crying out loud. On my Mac there is a *sliding drawer* which I click on to see my files of email messages. Not all physical file holders are sliding compartments. My reading of the definition is that the brackets around "sliding compartment" denote a typical instance of a , but do not necessarily restrict the meaning of the word to physical drawers with sliding compartments. dacru dac drawer x1 is a drawer/file in structure x2, a [sliding compartment] container for contents x3 There are clear cyber analogues to each of the broda in > >> is not an apt lojban word for file. A file *contains* records. > > Umm, BS. Unless you're defining record as an ASCII character or > something, I assure you, the vast majority of my files do not, in fact, > contain records. They are records (i.e. permanent-ish storage) of > data. "record" and "file" are useful English terms precisely because they distinguish two levels of abstraction about the organization of information. Do you have any Microsoft Word files on your computer? If so, some of your files contain records. Your approach would conflate these two levels of abstraction, to the detriment of clear expression of an idea. The definitions in the gismu files are necessarily terse due to space limitations. We ought to be careful not to be proscriptive. -Steven