From lojbab@lojban.org Tue May 06 05:51:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 68083 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19D1vJ-0007dL-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:57 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19D1vB-0007d1-00; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:49 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net ([68.1.17.243]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19D1uz-0007cq-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:37 -0700 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030506125106.RZAY24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:51:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506081042.03492ec0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:24:13 -0400 To: Subject: [lojban] Re: modularity & grammar (was: RE: Re: nai in UI (was: BPFK phpbb) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5157 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Robert LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 12:36 PM 5/6/03 +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > Not to say that every natlang conforms > > perfectly to this ideal, but even English comes pretty close. The Lojban > > grammar was created to refer to meaning only at the level of the syntactic > > category of the various words, and I think that design principle should > > remain unchanged > >To me it seems like a gang of computer programmers were let loose on >designing a language. In fact this is what happened in Lojban, but the complaint is invalid because the bulk of the language was designed by JCB, who was not much more computer literate than others of his generation, and was done by hand without a computer. The formalization of the grammar as a set of rules WAS done by programmers, but JCB started with a corpus of grammatical-by-definition sentences with parse structures that he defined, and told the programmers to devise rules that would create the desired parse. Only minor changes were made in the corpus over the years other than to expand it. But from 1976 to 1983 or so, TLI Loglan was defined by the corpus rather than by the YACC rules for that corpus. >But think back to the very beginnings of Loglan >when briefly it literally was (so I am told) speakable predicate logic. It never was. That may have been the concept, but IIRC, even the examples in the 1960 Scientific American article fell short of this, and the language was hardly speakable at that point. (JCB described it as "rattling around in people's brains" - it was too bare a structure to be able to say anything other than exact analogs of the few examples.) lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org From lojbab@lojban.org Tue May 06 05:51:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 68083 invoked from network); 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2003 12:51:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.12) id 19D1vJ-0007dL-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:57 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19D1vB-0007d1-00; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:49 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net ([68.1.17.243]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19D1uz-0007cq-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 May 2003 05:51:37 -0700 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.92.1]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030506125106.RZAY24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:51:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030506081042.03492ec0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:24:13 -0400 To: Subject: [lojban] Re: modularity & grammar (was: RE: Re: nai in UI (was: BPFK phpbb) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 5157 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Robert LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 12:36 PM 5/6/03 +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > Not to say that every natlang conforms > > perfectly to this ideal, but even English comes pretty close. The Lojban > > grammar was created to refer to meaning only at the level of the syntactic > > category of the various words, and I think that design principle should > > remain unchanged > >To me it seems like a gang of computer programmers were let loose on >designing a language. In fact this is what happened in Lojban, but the complaint is invalid because the bulk of the language was designed by JCB, who was not much more computer literate than others of his generation, and was done by hand without a computer. The formalization of the grammar as a set of rules WAS done by programmers, but JCB started with a corpus of grammatical-by-definition sentences with parse structures that he defined, and told the programmers to devise rules that would create the desired parse. Only minor changes were made in the corpus over the years other than to expand it. But from 1976 to 1983 or so, TLI Loglan was defined by the corpus rather than by the YACC rules for that corpus. >But think back to the very beginnings of Loglan >when briefly it literally was (so I am told) speakable predicate logic. It never was. That may have been the concept, but IIRC, even the examples in the 1960 Scientific American article fell short of this, and the language was hardly speakable at that point. (JCB described it as "rattling around in people's brains" - it was too bare a structure to be able to say anything other than exact analogs of the few examples.) lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org