From robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR Wed Apr 14 00:30:54 1999
X-Digest-Num: 114
Message-ID: <44114.114.625.959273824@eGroups.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:30:54 +0300
From: Robin Turner <robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR>
Subject: Re: di'e preti zo nu

John Cowan wrote:

> From: John Cowan <cowan@locke.ccil.org>
>
> Robin Turner wrote:
>
> > I also find {lo'e} and {le'e} a bit confusing. {lo'e} is described in the cmavo
> > list as "the typical one(s) that really is (are) ..." which implies that we have
> > a (subjective) judgement of typicality on top of on objective classification.
>
> Actually no. There are plenty of typical attributes that are not
> subjective: i.e. the typical lion lives in Africa, the typical
> person has two eyes and one nose, the typical Greek has dark hair,
> the typical bird flies, etc. etc. etc.
>
> > {le'e} is "the stereotype of those described as ..." which implies an objective
> > stereotypicality (since one person cannot create a stereotype) on top of a
> > subjective classification. Confusing indeed.
>
> "Stereotype" is acknowledged to be a poor term. It really means
> "IMHO-typical", and is tied to individual opinion as "le" is.

Ah, then all is clear - I was assuming that "stereotype" meant something like "x1 is a
member of category x2 possessing the category's distinguishing features x3 as
perceived by social group x4" (now that would have made a nice gismu!). The example
given, if I remember rightly, is a restaurant-owning Greek, which is a
socially-constructed, and therefore in a way objective, stereotype, rather than a
personal opinion as to typicality (though the two may coincide, of course). Given the
definitions here, {lo'e} and {le'e} become much more useful. If I have understood
this correctly, someone could say:

(1) lo merko cu cladu tavla
(2) le merko cu cladu tavla
(3) lo'e merko cu cladu tavla
(4) le'e merko cu cladu tavla

(1) would mean that there exists one or more people who fulfill the commonly agrred-on
criteria for being American, and that they talk loudly.
(2) would mean that one or more people I have in mind and describe as American talk
loudly.
(3) would mean that if a person fulfills both the commonly agreed-on criteria for
being American and also has characteristics that are actually held by the majority of
Americans but not of people in general, that person talks loudly.
(4) would mean that a person who corresponds to my idea of an American, talks loudly.

If we can agree on and clarify {lo'e} and {le'e}, they could become very useful tools
in argument, particularly in avoiding sweeping generalisations etc.

co'o mi'e robin.