From robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR Tue Apr 20 03:19:31 1999 X-Digest-Num: 119 Message-ID: <44114.119.663.959273824@eGroups.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:19:31 +0300 From: Robin Turner Subject: Re: Planned languages Richard wrote: (with some cuts) > A few weeks ago I left dangling a thread about Loglan, a planned > human language begun in the 1950s to test the Whorf Hypotheses that > language controls or greatly influences thought. Its creator > decided to optimize Loglan for logically unambiguous expression, to > see if those learning the language would acquire enhanced abilities > to think logically, and in order to facilitate comparison and > measurement, to develop a vocabulary more or less cognate with as > many major world languages as practical, to minimize any relative > advantage or disadvantage for students from different backgrounds, > such as might be the case with Esperanto, whose vocabulary is > predominantly European. I'm not sure how testable the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis really is, but it's a noble effort. > > > (Note: I've been assured by some Asians that they know that they > must learn a European language anyway, and that Esperanto is far > preferable to English and the other unplanned languages. Even if > they eventually learn another European language, Esperanto was given > as the best place to start, more than making up for the time > required to learn two languages rather than one. Controlled studies > of grade school students learning one year of Esperanto followed by > one year of another language showed greater mastery of the second > language than demographically matched students with two years of the > second language alone; and this applied across several languages. This is very interesting. Do you have the references for these tests? > > I know very little about Lojban except that it is an offshoot of > Loglan which came about over a copyright dispute (perhaps in the > mid-1980s?). As I understand it some of those working with JCB > wanted to make it public domain, he wanted to retain legal > ownership, so the others claimed his copyright applied to the > individual words, not the structure of the language, which they had > helped develop. Lojban is *almost* isomorphic with Loglan, except > for vocabulary. > AFAIK this is the case. It would have been pretty hard for JCB to claim copyright on the structure, since this would really mean claiming copyright on predicate logic! The other problem was that not only was JCB claiming copyright, but he was continually changing the language. This combination frustrated people somewhat. > Far from being all but dead, I see Loglan building for > greater activity than ever before. The listserv is getting > significant participation from those whose native language is not > English, including native speakers of Russian, Ossetian, German, and > Esperanto. (Actually, most of the Esperantists are not native > speakers; but not all of them know English nor Loglan, so there is > interest in developing a Loglan-Esperanto / Esperanto-Loglan > dictionary). > I must admit I was surprised at this resurgence of activity (as postings on the Lojban list show as well). > > Blanu is roughly equivalent to "blue", "bleu", "azul", "azure", > etc., but does not mean "blue" in the absolute sense it would in > other languages. Well, if Berlin etc. have taught us anything, it is that these words are not absolute anyway. > I don't know about Lojban, but in Loglan it is a > two-place predicate, comparing X to Y (or ba to be, or da to de, to > use colloquial Loglan terms). Loglan predicates by default make > relative comparisons rather than absolute declarations. After all, > there are many different shades of blue and not quite so blue: so > "da blanu de" means that "da" (= it(1) ) is more blue than "de" (= > it(2) ). It is perfectly regular and common to omit trailing > arguments of a predicate, so "da blanu" means simply "it's blue". > According to what you've just said, it means "It's bluer", which kind of obliges you to either fill in the missing argument or supply a default value in the definition. > > Loglan structure requires (and presumably the same or something very > similar applies to Lojban) that leading predicates be expressed at > least by blank place holders, so as I understand it, one way to say > that an item currently under consideration is less than ultimately > blue, is *"Ba blanu de". (something, it doesn't matter what, is > more blue than it(2).) * I could be mistaken about the choices of > "ba" and "de", but the principle here is sound loglan. > In Lojban, colours are one-place predicates. "da blanu" just menas that X is-blue by generally accepted atandards of blueness, not that it is bluer than something (though obviously there is a logical implication that a blue thing is bluer than a red thing). Since there are no sharp colour distinctions, we can read "da blanu" as "the colour of X approximates to prototypical BLUE". Of course, colour term vary across languages, but there seems to be substantial agreement on prototypes. > I, for one, like discussion of Loglan and other planned languages, > and I would think that Coglingites would have much to offer a > planned language being finallized just before going public in a big > way; and conversely the spread of Loglan would make a rare > opportunity to test theories of Language and Cognition as a newly > created and perfectly regular language is acquired by people > wherever the Internet reaches. The entirety of Loglan grammar has > been designed and tested by computer, making its properties known in > a way that should facilitate testing. Ditto Lojban. I too would appreciate discussion of planned languages (and planned reforms of natural languages) here so long as we can avoid: (a) knee-jerk reactions that Loglan, Esperanto etc. are not "real" languages and are thus unworthy of serious consideration (as usually happens when the subject is raised on sci.lang!) (b) exaggerated claims by overenthusiastic proponents of particular planned languages. I suspect that most cognitive linguists would regard Loglan and Lojban as quixotic projects (which is why I too remained silent on the subject for a long time). Nevertheless, I would be interested to hear people's ideas. Robin Turner