From sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx Tue May 4 04:41:33 1999
X-Digest-Num: 130
Message-ID: <44114.130.771.959273824@eGroups.com>
Date: 4 May 1999 11:41:33 -0000
From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

coi robin.

<372ec2a1.ec0d286-@bcc.bilkent.edu.tr> wrote: 
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1132

> From: Robin Turner <robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR>
> 
> > .i mi puzi co'a ctuca mi fo la lojban.
> >
> > [not sure whether {la lojban.} fits the place x3 or x4 of {ctuca} ]
> >
> 
> I'd use {cilre} or {tadni} rather than {ctuca} - "teach yourself" is really
> an English idiom which doesn't go that well into Lojban, I think (I don't
> know if there's a Russian equivalent). 

Actually, I have some difficulties with choosing Russian equivalents of the
{cilre/ctuca/tadni} cluster. First of all, English verb 'to learn' (and
definitions of gismu are given in English!) is depressingly polysemantic.
I can distinguish at least 3 meanings:

(A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban 
from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.

(B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'

(C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban' 

Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}? In Russian these are 3 strictly
not interchangeable verbs:

(A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')

(B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic). 
However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather 
a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
erased).

(C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)

May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar phrases? 
Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
places in {cilre}?

>I'd say
> 
> se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
> [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
> 
> or
> 
> mi pavysei jbotadni
> I alone-type Lojbanic-study
> 

Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear 
'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
a practical skill.

Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn". English
"to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
one uses other verbs e.g. 

'Could you tell/give me your phone number, please?'

French [apprendre] and Japanese [oshieru] include, however, also meaning (A):

[Fr] Apprenez-moi le numero de telephone, s'il vous plait

[Jap] denwa bango wo oshiete kudasai

(I heard once a Japanese to say in English "Please teach me your phone number")

Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?

co'o mi'e .evgenis.