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[Wikineurotic] Wiki page experimental gismu changed by najrut

The page experimental gismu was changed by najrut at 13:49 UTC

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@@ -Lines: 12-15 changed to +Lines: 12-16 @@
* ((Rant: Against Experimental gismu))
* ((Experimental gismu proposal)). Let's settle this the real, macho (or as macho as lojban gets) way: Tinker at each other!
+ * ((new color gismu)). Proposal for 4 new gismu for colors


The new page content follows below.


''Preceding these with ''za'e'' will endear you to those of us who are not committed ((hardliners|Naturalists)). (Not using them at all will endear you even more.)''


* ((loglo fu'ivla))
* ((Resurrected gismu))
* ((Experimental cultural gismu))
* ((Slang gismu))
* ((Free Gismu Space))
* ((Rant: Against Experimental gismu))
* ((Experimental gismu proposal)). Let's settle this the real, macho (or as macho as lojban gets) way: Tinker at each other!
* ((new color gismu)). Proposal for 4 new gismu for colors

!!Staple food
__plumu__ plum:x1 is a peach/plum/cherry/almond of species x2
* (''prunu'' conflicts with ''pruni'' "elastic")We have fu'ivla for some of the species, but no concise way to distinguish between a plum and any member of the whole genus without using fu'ivla rafsi (''ziryrutrprunu''). With this gismu, it could be zirplumu - not that all plums are the same color. --((Pierre Abbat|phma))
** This might be a good temporary gismu, but plant and animal gismu should be done by the algorithm. -- ((Adam))
*** fixed version of scoreGismu gives the answer. "plum" in all langs:
*** Chinese   Méi > mei
*** Hindi    Bēra > bera
*** English   plum > plam
*** Spanish  ciruela > siruela
*** Russian sliva > sliva
*** Arabic  Brqwq > byrkuk
*** mei 0.347 bera 0.196 plam 0.160 siruela 0.123 sliva 0.089  byrkuk 0.085
*** The highest score of 0.53 has   "smela". And I suggest {zirsmela} for plum, {xunsmela} for cherry, {najysmela} for peach, {pelsmela} for apricot, {ri'onsmela} for almond, {blasmela} for sloe. --mi'e ((najrut))

__kokso__ for coconut. Coconut is just as important as bread in some countries. So we have 
Chinese / Hindi / English / Spanish / Russian / Arabic
keke 0.347 / koko 0.196 / koko 0.160 / koko 0.123 / kokos 0.089 / kuku 0.085
And the highest score of 0.7662 have "koklo kokpo skoko kokro kokco kokso ckoko kokno kokfo kokmo kokto". So I suggest {kokso} (as the sound "s" is present in one of the six langs)  --mi'e ((najrut))
__pamga__ for papaya that is prevalent in America.
We have "mugua 0.347 papita 0.196 papaia 0.160 papaia 0.123 papaia 0.089 babaia 0.085" and scoreGismu outputs "pimga pamga" with the score of 0.4922

!!Other concepts that might have gismu
See [http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/unofficial-gismu.html]
Here are some concepts that should have gismu, but don't.

a gismu for __intension__ (''This should be 'intention'. See also ((intensional))'')
**Something along the lines of ''x1 is intended to be/supposed to be x2 (ka) as intended by x3''. Unless someone can tell me how to say this with existing gismu, which would be great. ''jinzi'', ''bilga'' don't seem quite right. -- ((Adam))
*** Something with djica dunli.
**** The idea is to translate those pesky things like "wine bottle". According to the most common interpretation (as far as I can tell), "botpi lo vanju" must actually contain wine. A wine bottle could be something like "broda le ka vanju botpi" if "broda" has the place structure above.
***** How many people would have a problem with "vanju botpi"? Do you think somebody would ask how a bottle could be made out of wine?
****** The problem isn't "vanju botpi". If I have an bottle filled with water which is a "wine bottle" in English by shape and probably former contents, I can't call it a "ca'a botpi lo vanju" in lojban, and thus "vanju botpi" may be misleading.
****** I am afraid you are being too literal. A bottle that is has only held water, but was made to hold wine, is still a vanju botpi.
****** So you would say ''ti vanju botpi lo djacu'' in the case above?
****** Yes. And if anybody complains, let them first read Chap 12 section 2 (p 275 in the printed version). The English word "for" in the definition of botpi ("...bottle for x2") may create some confusion. It may be interpreted to mean that is what the bottle is ''intended'' to contain, but not what it actually contains! Insisting upon that usage would drive us to ''ti botpi lo vanju fi'o vasru lo djacu''. Of course, none of this is anything like a general solution to your original issue! How would you like a ''fi'o djitai'' modal?--((xod))
**''ti tutci lo'e nu botpi lo vanju''This is used for bottling wine.''ti vanbo'itci'' --((xorxes))
*** That sounds like a device for filling wine bottles to me.
**** The English translation may be misleading. Maybe it should be 'This is used to contain wine'. ''botpi'' of course does not mean 'to bottle' in the sense of putting into a bottle, there is no such action implied in the Lojban version.

__((brivo))__ predicate-word: x1 [[zo] is a predicate-word expressing relationship x2 among arguments x3

__pitsa__ pizza: x1 is a pizza [[of type x2?] ''with ingredients/toppings x2? mi'e .filip.''

__salsa__ salsa: x1 is a quantity of salsa containing ingredients x2
* But __sanso__ already means that! --mi'e ((xorxes))
** this is just more specific.
*** ''No it isn't, salsa is just the Spanish word for sauce. This can be done with sanso if you put chips in the x2 place. - ((kreig.daniyl.))''
**** ''salsa is also the Italian word for sauce. When an Italian says "salsa", what he means more likely has tarragon and oregano in it than chili peppers. -((Pierre Abbat|phma))''
* ''mexsanso'' also works. I hardly think this concept is so important that a lujvo isn't good enough.
** Any particular reason this is ''mexno'' and not ''xispo'' or whatever?
***The Spanish word "salsa" means ''sanso'': __any__ kind of sauce. The English word "salsa", borrowed from Spanish, means ''mexsanso'', some typically Mexican sauce, I suppose. To an Argentinian, "salsa" does not have any strong association to that kind of sauce. Using ''salsa'' for ''mexsanso'' is malmerko. --((xorxes))
*''Salsa'' is sort of like ''Barbeque''. To some people, it is a specific thing, to others it is not. And to those for whom it is specific, the answer may differ. (Ask me sometime about the confusion this can cause when you want to buy salsa or offer tips on barbequeing). - mi'e. ((kreig.daniyl.))

__taksi__ taxi: x1 is a taxi/cab
* ((xorxes)) pointed out that this should have a place for passenger/cargo, probably in x2. (Compare karce, carce, and marce, which all have "for carrying x2".) I suggest that __taksi__ (should it exist) also have a place for usual area of operation, and possibly one for the driver. Perhaps something like ''__taksi__ taxi: x1 is a taxi/cab for carrying x2, operating in area x3, with driver x4''? - mi'e .filip.

__tango__ tango: members of set x1 consisting of lead x2 and follower x3 dance a tango
* __This clashes with ''tanko''__
* x1 (couple) tangoes to accompaniment/music x2 (''the place structure of __dansu__ seems much more appropriate, besides the tango is a kind of music before being a dance'')
** __tangygi'a__ for the lead and __tangyselgi'a__ for the follower.
* ''.i lo'e remei cu sarcu le nu tango''

__zbiga__ Asbergerish: x1 is a manifestation of Asberger's Syndrome in x2 as detected by x3
* ''do you mean "Asperger's Syndrome"? -b- seems a common mispeling on the Web, however. Maybe __spiga__, then? --pne''

__zombi__ zombie: x1 is a zombie in event/activity x2
* As amusing as that would be, I think gismu for various types of undead is probably going just waaay too far. (Should be a feasible lujvo, though.)
** Take a look at what happened to the innocent word "vampire" in ((round two)) of Broken Phone.

__nisku__ fraik: x1 is a fraik/marrot/eligug of species x2
* This is a back-formation from ''sfenisku'' "((Penguin|penguin))", which is a kind of ''nisku'' that stays on or goes under the surface, as opposed to other kinds of ''nisku'' which can fly. The great auk was a ''sefta nisku'', but not a ''sfenisku''.

__korvo__ crow: x1 is a crow/raven/magpie/jay of species x2
* Derived from Latin ''corvus'', this word matches English ''crow'', Spanish ''cuervo'', and Hebrew ''`orev'' (''what's the Arabic word?'').
**Since Latin "corvus" first of all means "raven", I'd put it first: x1 is a raven/crow/... "`orev" is both raven and crow, so it is in Malti (very close to Arabic) where it's "cawlun" (tcaulun); "cock-crow" also is "il-ghajta tasserduk" (il 'aita...).
a gismu for __crustacean__
*There should be for crustacean, arachnid, and insect a gismu. Most people AFAIK have no problem for most arthropods telling which they are, with a few exceptions like the horseshoe crab, which despite its name is a chelicerate, like the arachnids. With three gismu we could easily tell the crab month from the scorpion month. It makes no sense to me that the same gismu is used for both. -((Pierre Abbat|phma))
**I'm not so sure. Hardly anyone will be able to tell you that a pill bug is a crustacean.
**An improved version of scoreGismu outputs:
**Crustacean: lonxia 0.347 krefica 0.196 lopstr 0.160 langosta 0.123 rak 0.089  srtan.albxr 0.085    {lokra klora   0.44}
**Insect: cinki
**Arachnid: jiju 0.347 makari 0.196 spaidr 0.160 arana 0.123 pauk 0.089  xnkbut 0.085    {jijru jidju 0.40}
**We have suggested gismu and their score in braces. I'm not sure whether I've done the proper transliteration. So please put me right if necessary. I think lokra and jidju would be nice for new gismu and jukni should become obsolete in favor of them -((najrut))
*I think there are proportionally a few too many gismu for mammals as opposed to other animals. For example, there is "cmacu" (mouse) as well as "ratce" (rat) but no gismu for "turtle," "frog," or any aquatic invertebrates - ((UserPagePlasticRaven|Plastic Raven))
* {xatci} for 'yawn'. - Lindar
** Why {xatci} ?
*** Chinese		Dǎ hāqian	daxakian
*** Hindi			Jambhā'ī	jambai
*** English		        yawn		ion
*** Spanish		bostez-o	bostez
*** Russian		zev		zev
*** Arabic		ttha'b   	tytyxaxb
Then scoreGismu suggests "ximna/kibni/kimna/xibni/dibni". But isn't fu'ivla much better for 'yawn' ? -- mi'e najrut

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