Received: from mail-yh0-f58.google.com ([209.85.213.58]:43127) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wuw66-0006Rt-IJ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:54 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f58.google.com with SMTP id b6sf121317yha.3 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AzscvNoQltLOPfrbuHp6Y0IahqtcJUukB1cOuLoA0iM=; b=Mj16wJ614FKuj0xKam++ihwlWTG4lJqLEf9qMMRftCQ43Y70pmim04g0e2q8xIHifq q0hl6yHit2cQDPijbw8ojfI4bHSWl72PEjTVKJzvLn8B9Zl1aZlMb5zyHMYHJEJ79HNL DKSvz1L20jROG87FGj2SpU/Z2mkwcQogdV4bTT/VEUOThvI+9G/rJI1PHU2GfhYaxvco J3UYaoEgjAleWUBwBqjgnowwfZzMJ5ZdP6MoOueNTXgKDCPyp6aIJNtUD/6t4CiWIvRp PJ1gZrJIhnzOthXlk5Slf+evAcyLtGWK28QtoJQKm1HSNYr8WPaXhRZJbD/pajzvnljo 7IGg== X-Received: by 10.182.171.3 with SMTP id aq3mr2430obc.33.1402545276083; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.85.136 with SMTP id h8ls1436884obz.94.gmail; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.191.73 with SMTP id gw9mr2349176obc.50.1402545275591; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fox.seas.upenn.edu (foxv6.seas.upenn.edu. [2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ci7si5894385qcb.1.2014.06.11.20.54.35 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Jun 2014 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: none (google.com: aburka@seas.upenn.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::e; Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net [69.249.31.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by fox.seas.upenn.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s5C3sW17024869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 23:54:33 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 23:54:27 -0400 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20140611214105.GC28473@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140610152942.GA1582@mercury.ccil.org> <73581D93CF4542F0B52FDBDD7EB241C9@gmail.com> <20140611214105.GC28473@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [bpfk] BAhE + BU X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5400 definitions=5800 signatures=585085 X-PP-Spam-Details: rule=add_spam_details policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=12 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1111160001 definitions=main-1406120049 X-Original-Sender: aburka@seas.upenn.edu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: aburka@seas.upenn.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) smtp.mail=aburka@seas.upenn.edu Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="53992473_217b22e4_12754" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --53992473_217b22e4_12754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline There is one question left, raised by Riley on IRC: What happens if BAhE are repeated? This seems to have been answered back in= 2004: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?topics_offset= =3D1&forumId=3D1&comments_parentId=3D2165&display=3Dprint_all The consensus seemed to be that iterated BAhE all combine to mark the next = word, rather than marking each other -- so BAhE can't mark BAhE. I added th= is note to the definitions. Concretely, I propose these changes to make the three pages in question mor= e consistent and less confusing:=20 1) BPFK Section: lerfu forming cmavo - Remove "BAhE" from the definition of {bu} to leave the following: bu Combines with the previous word to make a Lojban letteral, provided that it= is not one of the quote cmavo (ZO, ZOI, LOhU, LEhU) or one of the erasure = cmavo (SI, SA, SU), ZEI, or FAhO. If the aforementioned previous word is al= ready a letteral, the resulting letteral will not necessarily be the same, = for instance, "ky. bu" is different from "ky". In addition to single words,= bu can be combined with a letteral that is already a composite of a word+b= u, a zei-lujvo, a zo-quoted word, a lo'u-quoted string of words or a zoi-qu= oted foreign text. If there is no previous word, "bu" is in error; this ent= ails that "bu bu" by itself is also ungrammatical. 2) BPFK Section: Nonce connectives - Clarify/unify/simplify the definitions of {ba'e} and {za'e} to leave the = following: ba'e (BAhE) Emphasize next word. Forethought emphasis indicator. Indicates that next wo= rd is especially emphasized or emphatic. For grammatical purposes, "ba'e" m= arks the following word but does not change its nature. (The construct beha= ves just as the marked word by itself.) The two words are considered distin= ct for "sa" matching purposes. Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in successio= n, and they combine to mark the next non-BAhE word. See also za'e, .ui, sa, "Magic Words". Keywords: Emphasize next word, emphasize next. za'e (BAhE) Nonce word follows. Forethought nonce-word indicator. Indicates that the ne= xt word is a nonce creation or is nonstandard in some way. For grammatical = purposes, "za'e" marks the following word but does not change its nature. (= The construct behaves just as the marked word by itself, though a marked br= ivla may have an unpredictable place structure.) The two words are consider= ed distinct for "sa" matching purposes. Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in = succession, and they combine to mark the next non-BAhE word. See also ba'e, .ui, sa, "Magic Words". Keywords: Nonce-word next, nonce word follows. (Note: I removed the language about left-to-right magic word resolution. BA= hE is not magic so it doesn't seem to fit in the individual word definition= s. And it's already mentioned in the Magic Words page.) 3) Magic Words - Add weasel word to the note about BAhE: s/any/nearly any/ Magic words are all cmavo that have some interaction with words as words ir= respective of the function of those words. These are SI SA SU ZO ZOI LOhU L= EhU ZEI BU and FAhO. (BAhE, even though it can modify nearly any word, is n= ot a magic word, because it doesn't affect the function of the word it modi= fies). If there are no objections, I'll make these changes. Alex=20 On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 at 5:41 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Alex Burka scripsit: >=20 > > And the language in "Nonce connectives" should definitely be unified -- > > either we say {ba'e} and {za'e} both "bind" with the following word, > > or neither of them do, plus the definition for {za'e} has points about > > {sa} and left-to-right magic word resolution that should be in both > > definitions assuming they are correct. > >=20 >=20 >=20 > On reflection I was wrong to say ba'e is not at all magic; it is semi-mag= ic > like UI and COI words. >=20 > --=20 > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org (mailto:cowan@ccil.o= rg) > I now introduce Professor Smullyan, who will prove to you that either > he doesn't exist or you don't exist, but you won't know which. > --Melvin Fitting >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto:b= pfk-list@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --53992473_217b22e4_12754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
There is one question left, raised by Riley on IRC:
The consensus seemed to be that iterated BAhE a= ll combine to mark the next word, rather than marking each other -- so BAhE= can't mark BAhE. I added this note to the definitions.

Concretely, I propose these changes to make the three p= ages in question more consistent and less confusing:

1) BPFK Section: lerfu forming cm= avo

- Remove "BAhE" from the definition of {bu} to= leave the following:
bu
Combines with the previ= ous word to make a Lojban =20 letteral, provided that it is not one of the quote cmavo (ZO, ZOI, LOhU, LEhU) or one of the erasure cmavo (SI, SA, SU), ZEI, or FAhO. If =20 the aforementioned previous word is already a letteral, the resulting =20 letteral will not necessarily be the same, for instance, "ky. bu" is =20 different from "ky". In addition to single words, bu can be combined =20 with a letteral that is already a composite of a word+bu, a zei-lujvo, a zo-quoted word, a lo'u-quoted string of words or a zoi-quoted foreign= text. If there is no previous word, "bu" is in error; this entails that "bu bu" by itself is also ungrammatical.

2) BPFK Section:= Nonce connectives

- Clarify/unify/simplify the de= finitions of {ba'e} and {za'e} to leave the following:
ba'e (BAhE)
Emphasize next word. Forethought empha= sis indicator. Indicates that next word is especially emphasized or emphatic. For grammatical purposes, "ba'e" marks the =20 following word but does not change its nature. (The construct behaves = just as the marked word by itself.) The two words are considered distinct f= or "sa" matching purposes. Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in successi= on, and they combine to mark the next non-BAhE word.
See also za'e,= .ui, sa, "Magic Words".
  • Keywords: Emphasize next word, emphasize next.
za'e (BAhE)
Nonce word follows. =20 Forethought nonce-word indicator. Indicates that the next word is a =20 nonce creation or is nonstandard in some way. For grammatical purposes, "za'e" marks the following word but does not change its =20 nature. (The construct behaves just as the marked word by itself, thou= gh a marked brivla may have an unpredictable place structure.) The two words are considered distinct for "sa" matching purposes. Multiple BA= hE cmavo may be used in succession, and they combine to mark the next non-B= AhE word.
See also ba'e, .ui, sa, "Magic Words".
  • Keywords: Nonce-word next, nonce word follows.
(Note: I removed the language about left-to-right magic word resolution. = BAhE is not magic so it doesn't seem to fit in the individual word definiti= ons. And it's already mentioned in the Magic Words page.)

3) Magic Words

- Add weasel word to the no= te about BAhE: s/any/nearly any/

Magic words are a= ll cmavo that have some interaction with words as =20 words irrespective of the function of those words. These are SI SA SU =20 ZO ZOI LOhU LEhU ZEI BU and FAhO. (BAhE, even though it can modify nearly a= ny word, is not a magic word, because it doesn't affect the function of the word it modifies).



= If there are no objections, I'll make these changes.

Alex
=20

On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 at= 5:41 PM, John Cowan wrote:

Alex Burka scripsit:
And the language in "Nonce conne= ctives" should definitely be unified --
either we say {ba'e} and = {za'e} both "bind" with the following word,
or neither of them do= , plus the definition for {za'e} has points about
{sa} and left-t= o-right magic word resolution that should be in both
definitions = assuming they are correct.

On r= eflection I was wrong to say ba'e is not at all magic; it is semi-magic
like UI and COI words.

--
<= div>I now introduce Professor Smullyan, who will prove to you that either
he doesn't exist or you don't exist, but you won't know which.
--Melvin Fitting

=
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=20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

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