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Subject: Re: [bpfk] official cmavo form
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On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 9:19 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

> coi ro me byfy
>
> peg morphology allows cmavo beginning with "consonant glide":
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm
> cmavo-form <- !h !cluster onset (nucleus h)* (!stressed nucleus / nucleus
> !cluster) / y+ / digit
> onset <-  h / consonant? glide / initial
>
> while CLL3.4 disallows it:
> "the ten following ones [diphtongs with on-glide, i.e. beginning with i or
> u] are used only as stand-alone words and in Lojbanized names and
> borrowings."
>

It's not very clear that it disallows them, it just says that they are not
used. I don't think for example that the form "ie'a" should be disallowed
as a cmavo form, even though it uses "ie" not as a stand-alone word.  I
wouldn't mind disallowing "consonant glide" in cmavo if they were also
disallowed in zi'evla. If they were disallowed in cmavo but not in zi'evla,
would that make "jiebroda" a valid zi'evla?


> Which is official now?
>

CLL, even though it leaves some points of the morphology unclear.


> La jbovlaste allows it based on peg morphology, and la gleki and I don't
> agree to the new rule. Concretely, an experimental cmavo "jie'e'e" is now
> discussed:
>
> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27527;natlangword=0;commentid=0;definition=0
>
> If this new rule is official, CLL3.4 must be modified.
>

The PEG morphology is not yet official. I would have been happy to disallow
"consonant glide" as a valid onset altogether, but other people were
opposed to that at the time. Some would have even allowed "CC glide" as a
syllable onset, so allowing a single consonant was something of a
compromise. I would be happy to go with the more strict "onset <-  h /
glide / initial" if that's the new consensus, although in that case there
are probably several words in jbovlaste that would have to be revised.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 9:19 PM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">coi ro me byfy<br><br>=
peg morphology allows cmavo beginning with &quot;consonant glide&quot;:<br>=
<br><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+PEG+Morphology+Al=
gorithm" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+PEG+M=
orphology+Algorithm</a><br>cmavo-form &lt;- !h !cluster onset (nucleus h)* =
(!stressed nucleus / nucleus !cluster) / y+ / digit<br>onset &lt;-=C2=A0 h =
/ consonant? glide / initial<br><br>while CLL3.4 disallows it:<br>&quot;the=
 ten following ones [diphtongs with on-glide, i.e. beginning with i or u] a=
re used only as stand-alone words and in Lojbanized names and borrowings.&q=
uot;<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s not very clear that=
 it disallows them, it just says that they are not used. I don&#39;t think =
for example that the form &quot;ie&#39;a&quot; should be disallowed as a cm=
avo form, even though it uses &quot;ie&quot; not as a stand-alone word.=C2=
=A0 I wouldn&#39;t mind disallowing &quot;consonant glide&quot; in cmavo if=
 they were also disallowed in zi&#39;evla. If they were disallowed in cmavo=
 but not in zi&#39;evla, would that make &quot;jiebroda&quot; a valid zi&#3=
9;evla?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Which is of=
ficial now? </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>CLL, even though it leav=
es some points of the morphology unclear.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">La jbovlaste allows it based on peg morphology, and =
la gleki and I don&#39;t agree to the new rule. Concretely, an experimental=
 cmavo &quot;jie&#39;e&#39;e&quot; is now discussed:<br><a href=3D"http://j=
bovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=3D27527;natlangword=3D0;commentid=
=3D0;definition=3D0" target=3D"_blank">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments=
.html?valsi=3D27527;natlangword=3D0;commentid=3D0;definition=3D0</a><br>=C2=
=A0<br>If this new rule is official, CLL3.4 must be modified.<br></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>The PEG morphology is not yet official. I woul=
d have been happy to disallow &quot;consonant glide&quot; as a valid onset =
altogether, but other people were opposed to that at the time. Some would h=
ave even allowed &quot;CC glide&quot; as a syllable onset, so allowing a si=
ngle consonant was something of a compromise. I would be happy to go with t=
he more strict &quot;onset &lt;-=C2=A0 h / glide / initial&quot; if that&#3=
9;s the new consensus, although in that case there are probably several wor=
ds in jbovlaste that would have to be revised.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&=
#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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