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[2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b3si3592607qcq.2.2014.11.09.13.26.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d; Received: by mail-qg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id z107so4651130qgd.32 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:26:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.80.136 with SMTP id c8mr2071458qgd.86.1415568373165; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net. [69.249.31.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s95sm13870713qgs.12.2014.11.09.13.26.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:26:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 16:26:05 -0500 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <5676AB4A25B640DEB6EE877F655D9D77@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0ECDA8252DB74B6A924A302A02D55629@gmail.com> <2B42884AD9984C369994567E68611980@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [bpfk] extended rafsi and a tosmabru/slinku'i boondoggle X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="545fdbed_47f86458_13b" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --545fdbed_47f86458_13b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline These didn't quite fix it. I think the problem has to do with stress, becau= se I stumbled onto a change that is a half-fix (but I have no idea what els= e it breaks). =20 Before any of this thread's changes, we have this (output from souped-up vl= atai.py in my camxes-py branch): > esporte'yske: valrtosmabru (e=3Dcmavo/A sporte'yske=3Dlujvo/sporte-ske) > sporte'yske: lujvo/sporte-ske > sporte: valslinku'i > esporte: fu'ivla/4 =20 > esporte'ysaske: valrtosmabru (e=3Dcmavo/A sporte'ysaske=3Dlujvo/sporte-sa= ske) =20 After incorporating the change to rafsi-string and y-less-rafsi, there is n= o difference =E2=9C=97. However, if I further remove the &unstressed-syllabe lookahead from stresse= d-brivla-rafsi (so stressed-brivla-rafsi <- brivla-head stressed-syllable h= y), then we do get some movement =E2=9C=93: > esporte'yske: lujvo/esporte-ske > sporte'yske: nalvla > sporte: valslinku'i > esporte: fu'ivla/4 > esporte'ysaske: valrtosmabru (e=3Dcmavo/A sporte'ysaske=3Dlujvo/sporte-sa= ske) =20 So it only fixes some of the broken lujvo =E2=9C=93=E2=9C=97. And it still = accepts both "esporte'y" and "sporte'y" as brivla-rafsi, no matter how many= redundant !slinkuhi lookaheads I add, so I don't understand that. But some= thing is going on here WRT stress... unless it's a red herring. mu'o mi'e selcfipu si la durkavore =20 On Sunday, November 9, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > =20 > =20 > On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Alex Burka wrote: > > I'm looking at the parse tree for "sporte'y" as a brivla_rafsi and I do= n't understand it, because it shows "sporte" as a brivla_head. But that sho= uld never happen because brivla_head has a !slinkuhi guard. What's going on= ? > =20 > OK, I think I figured it out. The problem is that because "orte'y" is a b= rivla rafsi, it thinks that "porte'y" is a slinku'i, and so "sporte'y" is f= ine. An additional problem with the slinku'i change is that it will also no= t accept "sprageti'y" as a rafsi because "prageti'y" is one, but "sprageti"= is not a slinku'i! > =20 > So, we must go back to the original slinkuhi rule, and we add instead thr= ee final cases to the rafsi-string rule: > =20 > slinkuhi <- consonant rafsi-string rafsi-string <- y-less-rafsi* (gismu /= CVV-final-rafsi / stressed-y-less-rafsi short-final-rafsi / y-rafsi / stre= ssed-y-rafsi / stressed-y-less-rafsi? initial-pair y / long-rafsi vowel h y= / CCV-rafsi h y / CVV-rafsi h y) =20 > =20 > And I think we need to add the !h in this one as well: > =20 > y-less-rafsi <- !y-rafsi (CVC-rafsi !y / CCV-rafsi / CVV-rafsi) !h !any-e= xtended-rafsi > =20 > Fingers crossed. > =20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes > =20 > =20 > =20 > -- =20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto:b= pfk-list@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --545fdbed_47f86458_13b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
These didn't quite fix it. I think the problem has to d= o with stress, because I stumbled onto a change that is a half-fix (but I h= ave no idea what else it breaks).

Before any of this thread's chang= es, we have this (output from souped-up vlatai.py in my camxes-py branch):<= /div>
esporte'yske: valrtosmabru (e=3Dcmavo/A spor= te'yske=3Dlujvo/sporte-ske)
sporte'yske: lujvo/sporte-ske
sporte: val= slinku'i
esporte: fu'ivla/4 
esporte'ysaske: valrtos= mabru (e=3Dcmavo/A sporte'ysaske=3Dlujvo/sporte-saske) 
After incorporating the change to rafsi-string and y-le= ss-rafsi, there is no difference =E2=9C=97.

Howeve= r, if I further remove the &unstressed-syllabe lookahead from stressed-= brivla-rafsi (so stressed-brivla-rafsi <- brivla-head stressed-syllable = h y), then we do get some movement =E2=9C=93:
esporte'yske: lujvo/esporte-ske
sporte'yske: nalvla
sporte: va= lslinku'i
esporte: fu'ivla/4
esporte'ysaske: valrtosmabru= (e=3Dcmavo/A sporte'ysaske=3Dlujvo/sporte-saske) 
<= div>
So it only fixes some of the broken lujvo =E2=9C=93=E2=9C=97= . And it still accepts both "esporte'y" and "sporte'y" as brivla-rafsi, no = matter how many redundant !slinkuhi lookaheads I add, so I don't understand= that. But something is going on here WRT stress... unless it's a red herri= ng.

mu'o mi'e selcfipu si la durkavore
=20 =20

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 at= 3:19 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:



On F= ri, Nov 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com> w= rote:
I'm looking at the parse tree for "sporte'y" as a brivl= a_rafsi and I don't understand it, because it shows "sporte" as a brivla_he= ad. But that should never happen because brivla_head has a !slinkuhi guard.= What's going on?

OK, I think I= figured it out. The problem is that because "orte'y" is a brivla rafsi, it= thinks that "porte'y" is a slinku'i, and so "sporte'y" is fine. An additio= nal problem with the slinku'i change is that it will also not accept "sprag= eti'y" as a rafsi because "prageti'y" is one, but "sprageti" is not a slink= u'i!

So, we must go back to the original slinkuhi = rule, and we add instead three final cases to the rafsi-string rule:

slinkuhi <- consonant rafsi-string =20

rafsi-string <- y-less-rafsi* (gismu / CVV-final-rafsi / stressed-y-less=
-rafsi short-final-rafsi / y-rafsi / stressed-y-rafsi / stressed-y-less-raf=
si? initial-pair y / long-rafsi vowel h y / CCV-rafsi h y / CVV-rafsi h y)

And I think we need to add the !h in this o= ne as well:

y-less-rafsi <- !y-rafsi (CVC-rafsi !y /=
 CCV-rafsi / CVV-rafsi) !h !any-extended-rafsi

Fingers crossed.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
 

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=20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

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