Received: from mail-lb0-f190.google.com ([209.85.217.190]:57510)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.80.1)
	(envelope-from <bpfk-list+bncBCOZJTMR5YGRBYVQRKRQKGQENJAOEXA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1XoKeA-0008FI-1j; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:51 -0800
Received: by mail-lb0-f190.google.com with SMTP id p9sf576329lbv.17
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=kGxw/VHfqU2MA3P9r9E/WlokaucJeEeCZmBWr06THAM=;
        b=wYgN/eS9w0xFyVBXxMLqEC/Ds6AEEUnJsJb7mIv4tZ8ql5aj3nHsD3auWo8Z4k/yHd
         FMTlMnlpcaJj/nnZvDot1KJodroL4IsEdVHbyeRSYCGB39nseLFepJMf4YgmAZ2WFLEh
         HDSQRXIi4qJw4WydilV2JjKw/5+meQ0ymmw9lq0C6e7F9vF43sijNJiW0dgLdgbLpPap
         dfn1q6G5IjkCCyQ6PfNxADcoRqpfH9tQaQG92wkzFovbHr7TpfrBpbZWXI9qfHFZH0YM
         YEgF+qhQ+d5h+kb8W1o4okUlmLUm2qAFQOndNLph87YyVTyPMA+n7VGmF/reBBlVUsHP
         qmTA==
X-Received: by 10.152.7.143 with SMTP id j15mr569100laa.0.1415747682679;
        Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.152.27.9 with SMTP id p9ls652937lag.80.gmail; Tue, 11 Nov 2014
 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.112.247.74 with SMTP id yc10mr7011924lbc.8.1415747682104;
        Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lb0-x22e.google.com (mail-lb0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ea4si539582lbc.0.2014.11.11.15.14.42
        for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e;
Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id p9so5225601lbv.19
        for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:42 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.112.132.104 with SMTP id ot8mr38664939lbb.3.1415747681918;
 Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.114.70.111 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2014 15:14:41 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <54620A89.6060205@gmail.com>
References: <c2b90d96-7b89-4633-bc33-6e42b16d705c@googlegroups.com>
	<20141018011419.GF12268@mercury.ccil.org>
	<97AABFB42A204E5D97A4EDFEA57A8508@gmail.com>
	<20141019012930.GF12991@mercury.ccil.org>
	<676B49242B0D4F6A986D6AFEA1EB3B3C@gmail.com>
	<20141019170808.GJ12991@mercury.ccil.org>
	<c610baca-170b-480d-aa30-a26e2c6fc793@googlegroups.com>
	<20141109004632.GL6360@mercury.ccil.org>
	<CACf3dPkHuWfRwr1MxeZmRTfbE1TkkHER7WxUmo7FewKUCZ1jog@mail.gmail.com>
	<acbd142e-f5ec-4e49-ae5c-0da8cb1b3813@googlegroups.com>
	<54620A89.6060205@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 20:14:41 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2cvz7PfOYY0BPVCj_sFqw-n5YVJv7RH=JhpB6neDsCjnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bpfk] {ro}, existential import and De Morgan
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bpfk-list.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/post>, <mailto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bpfk-list+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list
Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe>, <mailto:bpfk-list+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+972099695765+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a7ffeac255d05079d7127
X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-)
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--047d7b3a7ffeac255d05079d7127
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 10:09 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If I may dare to presume to venture to second-guess xorxes, I think he
> might view the EI as presupposed, in which case {ro da poi klama cu
> pavyseljirna} would have a truth value only when {su'o da klama} is true.
>

Given the four forms:

(1) ro lo broda cu brode
(2) ro broda cu brode
(3) ro da poi broda cu brode
(4) ro da ga nai broda gi brode

I think most people would agree that (1) presupposes that there are brodas
and (4) doesn't, and that (2) and (3) are equivalent to each other. In the
absence of brodas (4) is true and (1) is meaningless.

I would strongly disagree that any of these sentences is false in the
absence of brodas. Whether (2) and (3) are vacuously true or meaningless
doesn't seem to matter much, because in practice we don't quantify over
empty domains. I'm not sure if this is due to strict presupposition or just
Gricean good manners.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--047d7b3a7ffeac255d05079d7127
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 10:09 AM, And Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br></s=
pan>
If I may dare to presume to venture to second-guess xorxes, I think he migh=
t view the EI as presupposed, in which case {ro da poi klama cu pavyseljirn=
a} would have a truth value only when {su&#39;o da klama} is true.=C2=A0<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Given the four forms:</div><div><br></div=
><div>(1) ro lo broda cu brode</div><div>(2) ro broda cu brode</div><div>(3=
) ro da poi broda cu brode</div><div>(4) ro da ga nai broda gi brode</div><=
div><br></div><div>I think most people would agree that (1) presupposes tha=
t there are brodas and (4) doesn&#39;t, and that (2) and (3) are equivalent=
 to each other. In the absence of brodas (4) is true and (1) is meaningless=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I would strongly disagree that any of thes=
e sentences is false in the absence of brodas. Whether (2) and (3) are vacu=
ously true or meaningless doesn&#39;t seem to matter much, because in pract=
ice we don&#39;t quantify over empty domains. I&#39;m not sure if this is d=
ue to strict presupposition or just Gricean good manners.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;BPFK&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bpfk-list=
+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list@googlegrou=
ps.com">bpfk-list@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list">ht=
tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--047d7b3a7ffeac255d05079d7127--