Received: from mail-lb0-f183.google.com ([209.85.217.183]:43452) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XsAyU-000587-NT; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:46 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f183.google.com with SMTP id p9sf438387lbv.20 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=N0HIm/oaIeas5SeM7UlcVN2toAvNjZjeJSkQ4d5r+do=; b=xXb9ghV4nqM0ol4EuNo8rTTdRFuGsl8wwmzryej6VmQqh2F1bKkOZdWKVgk5nnCE2p 8tfDPgyl+LMCQ8oTNJUSJvTqB3Trf/p0wVLEIMHhiz3C1JYnWch94G2mofPts1BF7S8U FHHB7GujONS2WlA9hb7NcSyA5jMChK53j9LNDClW8kNVZOO4acgkWZ1nXPd8APvLbdj7 fmbkX6O44fspvSe5Ya+ShmWLDU42mJD7M+Yko6MlAn0SF/V5Y6qJc3tzyhYCGqKmWuTg H9Rd9/ITYOraDVWOPFYKIWmgoZeOYHllA8dapRDQAPk0vD+2oDAPbhWZ1Rt4CNffnmiU Jyqg== X-Received: by 10.152.30.74 with SMTP id q10mr224lah.22.1416663815377; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.42.170 with SMTP id p10ls293294lal.35.gmail; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.88.98 with SMTP id bf2mr3342931lab.1.1416663814541; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x230.google.com (mail-la0-x230.google.com. [2a00:1450:4010:c03::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sg7si931542lbb.1.2014.11.22.05.43.34 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::230; Received: by mail-la0-x230.google.com with SMTP id s18so5539836lam.7 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.10.143 with SMTP id i15mr10807105lab.5.1416663814404; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.70.111 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Nov 2014 05:43:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <407A8993FE744C7FB7AA19EDAB90EE87@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 10:43:34 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] {e'i} in usage and in the wiki From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113327746c858f050872bfd4 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113327746c858f050872bfd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 3:22 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > How can "I have to go" and "I should go" be subtle? Their difference is > very important. > Why losing it? > Which difference do you think is being lost? .e'i is part of a series of illocutionaries e'a/e'e/e'i/e'o/e'u with the speaker's attitude towards an action to be performed (typically but not necessarily) by someone else: .e'a: I hereby grant permission for this to take place: .e'e: I hereby give encouragement for this to take place: .e'i: I hereby impart instructions for this to take place: (or to use "constraint": I hereby impose a constraint for this to take place:) .e'o: I hereby pose a request for this to take place: .e'u: I hereby make a suggestion for this to take place: .ei is used to express how one feels the world ought to be: .ei: It ought to be the case that this takes place: So we have: .ei mi cliva It ought to be the case that I leave. I ought to leave. I should leave. .e'i mi cliva I hereby impart instructions that I leave. (Direct first person singular imperative not available in English, but "e'i mi'o cliva" "Let's leave".) [ju'a] mi bilga lo ka cliva [I assert that] I am under the obligation of leaving. I have to leave. There are circumstances when all three can be felicitously used, even though their precise meanings are somewhat different. Examples with "mi" as the agent are not always the best to show how UIs work, because it makes it harder to disentangle the effect on "mi" as the speaker from the effect on "mi" as the agent. With "do" we have: .ei do cliva It ought to be the case that you leave. You ought to leave. You should leave. (But not because I say so.) It's best if you leave. .e'i do cliva I hereby impart instructions that you leave. You should leave. (Because I say so. An instruction.) Leave. [ju'a] do bilga lo ka cliva [I assert that] You are under the obligation of leaving. You have to leave. (A statement, not an instruction.) With a third person: .ei la .alis. cu cliva It ought to be the case that Alice leaves. Alice ought to leave. Alice should leave. (But not because I say so.) It's best if Alice leaves. .e'i la .alis. cu cliva I hereby impart instructions that Alice leaves. Alice should leave. (Because I say so. An instruction.) (Let Alice leave.) [ju'a] la .alis. cu bilga lo ka cliva [I assert that] Alice is under the obligation of leaving. Alice has to leave. (A statement, not an instruction.) mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113327746c858f050872bfd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 3:22 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:

How can "I have to go" and "I should go" be= subtle? Their difference is very important.
Why losing it?
=

Which difference do you = think is being lost?

=C2=A0.e'i is part of a s= eries of illocutionaries e'a/e'e/e'i/e'o/e'u with the s= peaker's attitude towards an action to be performed (typically but not = necessarily) by someone else:

.e'a: I hereby g= rant permission for this to take place:
.e'e: I hereby give e= ncouragement for this to take place:
.e'i: I hereby impart in= structions for this to take place: (or to use "constraint": I her= eby impose a constraint for this to take place:)=C2=A0
.e'o: = I hereby pose a request for this to take place:
.e'u: I hereb= y make a suggestion for this to take place:

.ei is= used to express how one feels the world ought to be:

<= div>.ei: It ought to be the case that this takes place:

So we have:

=C2=A0.ei mi cliva
=C2= =A0It ought to be the case that I leave.
=C2=A0I ought to leave.<= /div>
=C2=A0I should leave.

=C2=A0.e'i mi = cliva
=C2=A0I hereby impart instructions that I leave.
= =C2=A0(Direct first person singular imperative not available in English, bu= t "e'i mi'o cliva" "Let's leave".)

=C2=A0[ju'a] mi bilga lo ka cliva
=C2=A0[I a= ssert that] I am under the obligation of leaving.
=C2=A0I have to= leave.

There are circumstances when all three can= be felicitously used, even though their precise meanings are somewhat diff= erent.

Examples with "mi" as the agent a= re not always the best to show how UIs work, because it makes it harder to = disentangle the effect on "mi" as the speaker from the effect on = "mi" as the agent. With "do" we have:

=C2=A0.ei do cliva
=C2=A0It ought to be the case that you= leave.
=C2=A0You ought to leave.
=C2=A0You should leav= e. (But not because I say so.)
=C2=A0It's best if you leave.<= /div>

=C2=A0.e'i do cliva
=C2=A0I hereby i= mpart instructions that you leave.
=C2=A0You should leave. (Becau= se I say so. An instruction.)
=C2=A0Leave.

=C2=A0[ju'a] do bilga lo ka cliva
=C2=A0[I assert that] Yo= u are under the obligation of leaving.
=C2=A0You have to leave. (= A statement, not an instruction.)

With a third per= son:

=C2=A0.ei la .alis. cu cliva
= =C2=A0It ought to be the case that Alice leaves.
=C2=A0Alice ough= t to leave.
=C2=A0Alice should leave. (But not because I say so.)=
=C2=A0It's best if Alice leaves.

= =C2=A0.e'i la .alis. cu cliva
=C2=A0I hereby impart instructi= ons that Alice leaves.
=C2=A0Alice should leave. (Because I say s= o. An instruction.)
=C2=A0(Let Alice leave.)

=
=C2=A0[ju'a] la .alis. cu bilga lo ka cliva
=C2=A0[I ass= ert that] Alice is under the obligation of leaving.
=C2=A0Alice h= as to leave. (A statement, not an instruction.)

<= div>mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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