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Subject: Re: [bpfk] {e'i} in usage and in the wiki
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On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 6:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

> oops, sorry. the two my definitions of {e'i} contradict each other.
> Let me try once again:
> ei mi cliva - conventions/rules dictate that I leave.
> e'i mi cliva - the situation forces me to leave.
>
> ei = sei [lo nu no'a cu] se javni
> e'i = sei [lo nu no'a cu] se bapli [be lo nau tcini]
>
> by [lo nu no'a] I mean the event of the bridi in which the sei-clause is
> inserted.
>

Do you really want "nau" or "lo tcini be lo nu no'a"?



> , but I see a lot of usage of these words with sentences where "mi" is not
>> the agent. Some random examples for ".e'i" from korpora zei sisku:
>>
>
> Do you think they reflect the meaning that you suggest for {e'i}?
>

For the most part, yes.


> E.g. this is how I understand them (recurring examples are not translated):
>
> do sanga ,e'i  = It has to be so that you sing.
>

"Sing!"

.i mi do viska sei .e'i do terpa = ?
>

"I see you - be afraid (of that)."


> .au .ei .e'i do cilre fi lo cnima'o = It should and has to be so that you
> learn about cnima'o, and I wish it was so.
>

A mix of "I wish you would learn about attitudinals", "you ought to learn
about attitudinals" and "do learn about attitudinals".


> .i ku'i .e'i mi'o denpa = We have to wait
>

"But let's wait."


> .e'i ko ta mi dunda = It has to be so that you wait so wait!
>

"Give that to me!"

I can agree with And that "to have to" might not be an illocutionary thing
> but rather a modal but then how can these examples be understood otherwise?
>

As imperatives. The modal is "na ka'e na" or "bi'ai".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 6:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div>oops, sorry. the two my definitions of {e&#39;i} cont=
radict each other.</div><div>Let me try once again:</div><span class=3D""><=
div><div>ei mi cliva - conventions/rules dictate that I leave.</div><div>e&=
#39;i mi cliva - the situation forces me to leave.</div></div><div><br></di=
v></span><div>ei =3D sei [lo nu no&#39;a cu] se javni</div><div>e&#39;i =3D=
 sei [lo nu no&#39;a cu] se bapli [be lo nau tcini]</div><div><br></div><di=
v>by [lo nu no&#39;a] I mean the event of the bridi in which the sei-clause=
 is inserted.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do yo=
u really want &quot;nau&quot; or &quot;lo tcini be lo nu no&#39;a&quot;?=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span c=
lass=3D""><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>, but I see a lot of usage of these words with s=
entences where &quot;mi&quot; is not the agent. Some random examples for &q=
uot;.e&#39;i&quot; from korpora zei sisku:</div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div></span><div>Do you think they reflect the meaning that y=
ou suggest for {e&#39;i}?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>For the most part, yes.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div>E.g. this is how I understand them (recurring examples are not tr=
anslated):</div><div><br></div><div>do sanga<span style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">=C2=A0,</span>e&#39;i =C2=A0=3D It has to be so that you sing.</div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&quot;Sing!&quot;</div><d=
iv><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>.i mi do viska sei<span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0</span>.e&#39;i<span style=3D"white-space:p=
re-wrap">=C2=A0</span>do terpa =3D ?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>&quot;I see you - be afraid (of that).&quot;</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>.au .ei<span style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">=C2=A0</span>.e&#39;i<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=
=A0</span>do cilre fi lo cnima&#39;o =3D It should and has to be so that yo=
u learn about cnima&#39;o, and I wish it was so.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>A mix of &quot;I wish you would learn about a=
ttitudinals&quot;, &quot;you ought to learn about attitudinals&quot; and &q=
uot;do learn about attitudinals&quot;.</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div>.i ku&#39;i<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span>.e&#39;i<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0</span>mi&#39;o den=
pa =3D We have to wait</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>&quot;But let&#39;s wait.&quot;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div>.e&#39;i<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0</span>ko=
 ta mi dunda =3D It has to be so that you wait so wait!</div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&quot;Give that to me!&quot;=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I can agree with And that =
&quot;to have to&quot; might not be an illocutionary thing but rather a mod=
al but then how can these examples be understood otherwise?<br></div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As imperatives. The modal is &=
quot;na ka&#39;e na&quot; or &quot;bi&#39;ai&quot;.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><=
/div>

<p></p>

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