Received: from mail-yk0-f191.google.com ([209.85.160.191]:41627) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Xv5OQ-0002IE-NB; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:33 -0800 Received: by mail-yk0-f191.google.com with SMTP id 9sf1352039ykp.18 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=KGdZOSmYXJuXXxrnuX6YH8AGviucYTWodpBrWjHhYMg=; b=flxHl4C0PD9dpVJU5B7ifLf+y3KpjvLtBMtY90lqYJLrzYLoOeicTXtVIrvvap/g9P tErANLneiv0Ytzk0SAedQOgFBFd/BPkM9l1N9JQ/H0Q7ZFmme7E/BvN1V4V1pnsHAJ6m W0/xCNK5/H3Ow/oexK/LRox9xv+A2YU0mQ5Odlea1Fpfk5ZsNyBeKqswbJkOFdTm9dEi JXrtizxonoJHbMzrUVdF60hZ7cD45eBUduFnPOy7G2AbYTZQdQOE1j5eVgmcj+HUDkA7 hn7F9sOU8Zng01PDSjuA5MQ9lptIZXhzHLZ6Kuah+hRrzJxut7Zdx52B/CBlhtCnilJ5 ZDXA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=KGdZOSmYXJuXXxrnuX6YH8AGviucYTWodpBrWjHhYMg=; b=Bf2arxigTHH3SAoNMuwZERT2N9z2vUfWYKUwsRrBKlmh7bgIxqPTDMjwCs4PL2kNgz KhwDbDG+rnuChUanRUNwBneSs3RJn0Ty7RUKOg812utT/8vIhmVk2GSYlcukG03Q/c6w 1CS2UsiqMo8JlP9G6oIKrmdnG9Q4GANvZiSBrXiKe6Lk4g0Ytv1PzlqXNbT5DTivGOOO +vdIFYW6dT+k5i9RUh5WU7a0fv7YX6HdPDAphmCPIhST+K/QcPL7EPjvZ0zeJeST1LCB 9uJLfndmgGAp0q1b5k6uI8X3nqp/Pu8PRtI8GM2M2ppHVTjgCd+ncbTG5aatrBlbR8oE bVGQ== X-Received: by 10.182.181.35 with SMTP id dt3mr10124obc.19.1417357344298; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.89.193 with SMTP id bq1ls1685437obb.44.gmail; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.252.232 with SMTP id zv8mr139obc.37.1417357344026; Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 06:22:23 -0800 (PST) From: mukti To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <4bd0bea9-e89a-47e8-bb13-622cb3a67f60@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <547A01A8.4040606@gmx.de> References: <20141018011419.GF12268@mercury.ccil.org> <97AABFB42A204E5D97A4EDFEA57A8508@gmail.com> <20141019012930.GF12991@mercury.ccil.org> <676B49242B0D4F6A986D6AFEA1EB3B3C@gmail.com> <20141019170808.GJ12991@mercury.ccil.org> <20141109004632.GL6360@mercury.ccil.org> <54620A89.6060205@gmail.com> <72cc5d1d-d442-4b70-9552-d5d407498ffe@googlegroups.com> <547A01A8.4040606@gmx.de> Subject: Re: [bpfk] {ro}, existential import and De Morgan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_7514_1646490562.1417357343481" X-Original-Sender: shunpiker@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_7514_1646490562.1417357343481 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7515_92600292.1417357343482" ------=_Part_7515_92600292.1417357343482 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Saturday, November 29, 2014 11:26:00 AM UTC-6, la selpa'i ku wrote: > > What I don't understand is why, after achieving such a high consensus, > we still cannot seem to call the question of existential import settled. Is this not a democratic institution/committee? BPFK is bound by the Baseline Policy of 2002 , from which it draws its charter, to pursue near-consensus when considering changes to "baseline documents": Changes must be approved by consensus, with specific procedures to determine consensus decided by the byfy subject to Board of Directors review. In general, a single objector shall not be presumed to deny consensus. There's been a tradition of interpreting this as "consensus-minus-one". There is little guidance on the determination of who is counted towards/against consensus. The committee is bound to respect a notion of "open membership", which seems to extend to anyone who participates in committee activity. The Policy explicitly says that the chair of BPFK must seek approval of the Directors if the chair wishes to determine membership in some other fashion. It's worth noting that the very consideration of such a change, as well as the order in which it is considered relative to other committee business, may be restricted by the Policy. In 2003, when BPFK was chaired by Nick Nicholas, it was so interpreted by lojbab: the byfy should NOT be considering any proposals for changes to the baseline documents (which fall under the final task) UNTIL it has finished the primary, secondary, and tertiary tasks. This interpretation does not seem to have been consistently enforced since that time, but the Policy from which the intepretation was derived has not been amended. To return to the question of how to settle an issue like the one at hand: It appears to me that the only way to record a decision like this is for the chair to declare the matter decided. The declaration would, according to the Policy, be open to recall by the Directors on questions of consensus. The Directors or the President might also challenge a decision on the basis of other restrictions imposed by the Baseline Policy, such as the order of committee business. Is it any wonder that, given the extent to which the authority of BPFK has been undermined, both pre-emptively and after the fact, the chair might be reluctant to make such declarations? I submit that the current arrangement has long failed to achieve the objectives it was explicitly intended to forward, that it is no longer consonant with the will of the lojban-using community, and that it is time to consider another way forward. To that end, I hope that when baseline policy is raised at the annual meeting of LLG (currently in session), that members of this committee as well as the general body, will consider a measure to provide BPFK with a new charter. mi'e la mukti mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_7515_92600292.1417357343482 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 11:26:00 AM UTC-6, la selpa= 'i ku wrote:
What I don't under= stand is why, after achieving such a high consensus,=20
we still cannot seem to call the question of existential import settled= .
Is this not a de= mocratic institution/committee?

BPFK is bou= nd by th= e Baseline Policy of 2002, from which it draws its charter, to pursue n= ear-consensus when considering changes to "baseline documents":
<= br>
Changes must be approved by consensus, with specific procedures to= determine consensus decided by the byfy subject to Board of Directors revi= ew. In general, a single objector shall not be presumed to deny consensus.<= /div>

There's been a tradition of interpret= ing this as "consensus-minus-one". There is little guidance on the determin= ation of who is counted towards/against consensus. The committee is bound t= o respect a notion of "open membership", which seems to extend to anyone wh= o participates in committee activity. The Policy explicitly says that the c= hair of BPFK must seek approval of the Directors if the chair wishes to det= ermine membership in some other fashion.

It's wort= h noting that the very consideration of such a change, as well as the order= in which it is considered relative to other committee business, may be res= tricted by the Policy. In 2003, when BPFK was chaired by Nick Nicholas, i= t was so interpreted by lojbab:

the byfy shoul= d NOT be considering any proposals for changes to the baseline documents (w= hich fall under the final task) UNTIL it has finished the primary, secondar= y, and tertiary tasks.

This interpret= ation does not seem to have been consistently enforced since that time, but= the Policy from which the intepretation was derived has not been amended.<= /div>

To return to the question of how to settle an issu= e like the one at hand: It appears to me that the only way to record a deci= sion like this is for the chair to declare the matter decided. The declarat= ion would, according to the Policy, be open to recall by the Directors on q= uestions of consensus. The Directors or the President might also challenge = a decision on the basis of other restrictions imposed by the Baseline Polic= y, such as the order of committee business.

Is it = any wonder that, given the extent to which the authority of BPFK has been u= ndermined, both pre-emptively and after the fact, the chair might be reluct= ant to make such declarations?

I submit that the c= urrent arrangement has long failed to achieve the objectives it was explici= tly intended to forward, that it is no longer consonant with the will of th= e lojban-using community, and that it is time to consider another way forwa= rd. To that end, I hope that when baseline policy is raised at the annual m= eeting of LLG (currently in session), that members of this committee as wel= l as the general body, will consider a measure to provide BPFK with a new c= harter.

mi'e la mukti mu'o

--
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