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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:26:12 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2epetE+NrniYdQgv-zzTQ-J082xx_mNbOTouiA0+u7A1A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bpfk] official cmavo form
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 1:11 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote:

> Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas scripsit:
>
> > Well, it depends on how much we're willing to reform. My assumption is
> that
> > Lojban needs to distinguish between the four forms "le'i", "le .i", "le
> ii"
> > and "lei". We have six candidate pronunciations: /lehi/, /le?i/, /le?ji=
/,
> > /leji/, /lei/, /lej/.
>
> There is also "lei .i".
>

And worse "lei ii".

> Obviously /lehi/ -> "le'i", /le?i/ -> "le .i" and /lej/ -> "lei".
>
> Yes.
>
> > That leaves three pronunciations from which to choose for "le ii", and
> for
> > me the best choice is /leji/ because /le?ji/ is way too close to /le?i/=
,
> > closer than /leji/ is to /lej/, due to syllable count.
>
> I recognize the force of this, but becdause "lei .i" has to be "lej?i"
>

and "lei ii" has to be /lej?ji/ or /lej/-pause-/ji/, since we don't allow
/lejji/. Yes, that's unfortunate.

I think "le .ii" has to be /le?ji/.  This is no worse than the similarity
> of initial "ii" and "i", which (for example) is completely inaudible
> to sinophones:  they write "pinyin" (in Latin script) but pronounce
> it /pinin/.  In practice this means that /ji/ has to be pronounced with
> an approximant.
>
> It really sucks to have "ii" and "uu" at all.  They should be confined to
> the attitudinals, and *never* used anywhere else.
>

To me allowing "iibroda" while rejecting "iibro da" doesn't make a lot of
sense. It shouldn't be a matter of word class, we either allow the syllable
"ii" or we don't. Also, if "ii" is an attitudinal, "ii'a" could be one as
well.

If the words "ii" and "uu" are to be treated as complete anomalies, then
the camxes morphology may need to be rethought. It might then make sense to
allow syllables without onsets, treat ia, ie, io, iu as bisyllabic, and
allow ae, ao, ea, eo, eu, oa, oe, ou as well.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 1:11 PM, John Cowa=
n <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cowan@mercury.ccil.org" target=3D=
"_blank">cowan@mercury.ccil.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas scripsit:<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; Well, it depends on how much we&#39;re willing to reform. My assumptio=
n is that<br>
&gt; Lojban needs to distinguish between the four forms &quot;le&#39;i&quot=
;, &quot;le .i&quot;, &quot;le ii&quot;<br>
&gt; and &quot;lei&quot;. We have six candidate pronunciations: /lehi/, /le=
?i/, /le?ji/,<br>
&gt; /leji/, /lei/, /lej/.<br>
<br>
</span>There is also &quot;lei .i&quot;.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>And worse &quot;lei ii&quot;. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
&gt; Obviously /lehi/ -&gt; &quot;le&#39;i&quot;, /le?i/ -&gt; &quot;le .i&=
quot; and /lej/ -&gt; &quot;lei&quot;.<br>
<br>
</span>Yes.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; That leaves three pronunciations from which to choose for &quot;le ii&=
quot;, and for<br>
&gt; me the best choice is /leji/ because /le?ji/ is way too close to /le?i=
/,<br>
&gt; closer than /leji/ is to /lej/, due to syllable count.<br>
<br>
</span>I recognize the force of this, but becdause &quot;lei .i&quot; has t=
o be &quot;lej?i&quot;<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>and &quot;lei ii=
&quot; has to be /lej?ji/ or /lej/-pause-/ji/, since we don&#39;t allow /le=
jji/. Yes, that&#39;s unfortunate.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
I think &quot;le .ii&quot; has to be /le?ji/.=C2=A0 This is no worse than t=
he similarity<br>
of initial &quot;ii&quot; and &quot;i&quot;, which (for example) is complet=
ely inaudible<br>
to sinophones:=C2=A0 they write &quot;pinyin&quot; (in Latin script) but pr=
onounce<br>
it /pinin/.=C2=A0 In practice this means that /ji/ has to be pronounced wit=
h<br>
an approximant.<br>
<br>
It really sucks to have &quot;ii&quot; and &quot;uu&quot; at all.=C2=A0 The=
y should be confined to<br>
the attitudinals, and *never* used anywhere else.<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>To me allowing &quot;iibroda&quot; while rejecting &quot;iibro d=
a&quot; doesn&#39;t make a lot of sense. It shouldn&#39;t be a matter of wo=
rd class, we either allow the syllable &quot;ii&quot; or we don&#39;t. Also=
, if &quot;ii&quot; is an attitudinal, &quot;ii&#39;a&quot; could be one as=
 well.</div><div><br></div><div>If the words &quot;ii&quot; and &quot;uu&qu=
ot; are to be treated as complete anomalies, then the camxes morphology may=
 need to be rethought. It might then make sense to allow syllables without =
onsets, treat ia, ie, io, iu as bisyllabic, and allow ae, ao, ea, eo, eu, o=
a, oe, ou as well.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<=
/div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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