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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:46:07 -0500
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Subject: Re: [bpfk] Question on {z} vs. {dz} and {ts}
From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
    > wrote: > Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense
    of > [z] in Lojban. > > Mandarin doesn't have it/has it as an allophone of
    t͡s. > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1DwhuU/edit?usp=drive_web
    > > So my question is: what would be the minimally destroying changes to
   > remove [z] from the language or to remove {dz} instead so that Mandarin
   > speakers can use t͡s to mean [z]. I know that replacing "voiced/voiceless"
    > distinction with "non-aspirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless" might
   not > be embraced easily but since Chinese is one of the source languages
   may be > something could be done to make their life happier? > > I suppose
    to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never > pronounce
    {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in > {radzu'e}. >
   [...] 
 
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On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m
> wrote:

> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense of
> [z] in Lojban.
>
> Mandarin doesn't have it/has it as an allophone of t=CD=A1s.
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD=
1DwhuU/edit?usp=3Ddrive_web
>
> So my question is: what would be the minimally destroying changes to
> remove [z] from the language or to remove {dz} instead so that Mandarin
> speakers can use t=CD=A1s to mean [z]. I know that replacing "voiced/voic=
eless"
> distinction with "non-aspirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless" might no=
t
> be embraced easily but since Chinese is one of the source languages may b=
e
> something could be done to make their life happier?
>
> I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, neve=
r
> pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in
> {radzu'e}.
>

I never knew that [z] was an allophone of Mandarin /t=CD=A1s/.  I am curiou=
s, do
you know how well Mandarin speakers manage with Lojban's voiced plosives /b
d g/?  Are [b d g] allophones of Mandarin /p t k/?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Today I was reminded of one &quot;flaw&quot; in=
 phonology namely, the presense of [z] in Lojban.<div><br></div><div>Mandar=
in doesn&#39;t have it/has it as an allophone of=C2=A0t=CD=A1s.</div><div><=
br></div><div><a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_=
G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1DwhuU/edit?usp=3Ddrive_web" target=3D"_blank">https=
://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1DwhuU/=
edit?usp=3Ddrive_web</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>So my question is: wh=
at would be the minimally destroying changes to remove [z] from the languag=
e or to remove {dz} instead so that Mandarin speakers can use=C2=A0t=CD=A1s=
 to mean [z]. I know that replacing &quot;voiced/voiceless&quot; distinctio=
n with &quot;non-aspirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless&quot; might not =
be embraced easily but since Chinese is one of the source languages may be =
something could be done to make their life happier?</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, neve=
r pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in {radz=
u&#39;e}.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I never knew th=
at [z] was an allophone of Mandarin /t=CD=A1s/.=C2=A0 I am curious, do you =
know how well Mandarin speakers manage with Lojban&#39;s voiced plosives /b=
 d g/?=C2=A0 Are [b d g] allophones of Mandarin /p t k/?<br></div><br><div>=
<br><br><br><br></div><div><br>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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