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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:12:29 +0300
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Subject: Re: [bpfk] Question on {z} vs. {dz} and {ts}
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 Content preview:  2015-01-18 18:46 GMT+03:00 Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>: >
   On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
    wrote: > >> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense
    of >> [z] in Lojban. >> >> Mandarin doesn't have it/has it as an allophone
    of t͡s. >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1DwhuU/edit?usp=drive_web
    >> >> So my question is: what would be the minimally destroying changes to
    >> remove [z] from the language or to remove {dz} instead so that Mandarin
    >> speakers can use t͡s to mean [z]. I know that replacing "voiced/voiceless"
    >> distinction with "non-aspirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless" might
    not >> be embraced easily but since Chinese is one of the source languages
    may be >> something could be done to make their life happier? >> >> I suppose
    to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, >> never pronounce
    {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in >> {radzu'e}. >>
    > > I never knew that [z] was an allophone of Mandarin /t͡s/. > [...] 
 
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2015-01-18 18:46 GMT+03:00 Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>:

> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <
> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense of
>> [z] in Lojban.
>>
>> Mandarin doesn't have it/has it as an allophone of t=CD=A1s.
>>
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuP=
D1DwhuU/edit?usp=3Ddrive_web
>>
>> So my question is: what would be the minimally destroying changes to
>> remove [z] from the language or to remove {dz} instead so that Mandarin
>> speakers can use t=CD=A1s to mean [z]. I know that replacing "voiced/voi=
celess"
>> distinction with "non-aspirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless" might n=
ot
>> be embraced easily but since Chinese is one of the source languages may =
be
>> something could be done to make their life happier?
>>
>> I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz},
>> never pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} i=
n
>> {radzu'e}.
>>
>
> I never knew that [z] was an allophone of Mandarin /t=CD=A1s/.
>

I only heard it from some speakers. I'm not an expert. May be it's some
dialectal variation close but not equal to Beijing dialect.


>   I am curious, do you know how well Mandarin speakers manage with
> Lojban's voiced plosives /b d g/?  Are [b d g] allophones of Mandarin /p =
t
> k/?
>

IMO, most of them can be rather semi-voiced than fully voiced except [g]
probably. But how would they otherwise perceive [b] if not as [p]?

As for when we do need to express [p] we would probably have to always
aspirate it to make Chinese Lojbanists understand more easily what we are
saying.

And this is how I mapped the phonologies of the two languages. The result
is that only [v] and [z] can pose problems.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2015-01-18 18:46 GMT+03:00 Mike S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 a=
t 10:03 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is=
.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Today I was reminded of one &quot;flaw&quot; in phonology namely, =
the presense of [z] in Lojban.<div><br></div><div>Mandarin doesn&#39;t have=
 it/has it as an allophone of=C2=A0t=CD=A1s.</div><div><br></div><div><a hr=
ef=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFd=
QuPD1DwhuU/edit?usp=3Ddrive_web" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.com/=
document/d/1_w-c7yM6beFUc_G-XCSLlRfrCewhQosFdQuPD1DwhuU/edit?usp=3Ddrive_we=
b</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>So my question is: what would be the min=
imally destroying changes to remove [z] from the language or to remove {dz}=
 instead so that Mandarin speakers can use=C2=A0t=CD=A1s to mean [z]. I kno=
w that replacing &quot;voiced/voiceless&quot; distinction with &quot;non-as=
pirated-semi-voiced/aspirated-voiceless&quot; might not be embraced easily =
but since Chinese is one of the source languages may be something could be =
done to make their life happier?</div><div><br></div><div>I suppose to do t=
hat one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never pronounce {dz} as=
 an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in {radzu&#39;e}.=C2=A0</di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>I never knew that [z] =
was an allophone of Mandarin /t=CD=A1s/.</div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>I only heard it from some speakers. I&#39;m not an ex=
pert. May be it&#39;s some dialectal variation close but not equal to Beiji=
ng dialect.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0 =
I am curious, do you know how well Mandarin speakers manage with Lojban&#39=
;s voiced plosives /b d g/?=C2=A0 Are [b d g] allophones of Mandarin /p t k=
/?<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IMO, most of=
 them can be rather semi-voiced than fully voiced except [g] probably. But =
how would they otherwise perceive [b] if not as [p]?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>As for when we do need to express [p] we would probably have to always a=
spirate it to make Chinese Lojbanists understand more easily what we are sa=
ying.</div><div><br></div><div>And this is how I mapped the phonologies of =
the two languages. The result is that only [v] and [z] can pose problems.</=
div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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