Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:39660) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YTfyQ-0002Ku-Oy; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:18:42 -0800 Received: by obcuy5 with SMTP id uy5sf2678231obc.6; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:18:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=S5ZFuejiNRIJCONrLfnaRlq8oSJEoCm6xMrtpX3zFBA=; b=ZNaToMA+fwSwKr3XUQYi6Of3jwC/0ZbmQ6QvrgMWt0JxGW6kQLpbQT4imAvY/V8+L6 qSmSGjPcH7t3v5Qs+S7Z8x8UAsLqHQllnubpMGVnEGmH9RJFlzeERMukRr3eFgNRYzHA ysgNClq9gf5m1hjThVnkjFULpk1zTNpF0ajNNNkDCcBzz8bVz84cMczmoC7D9xCjxdP0 VEZJNzBGWf0GlgzZNsCkIPeUq+HGtnDLzn7NQAxE+Wy5NlLf2AURfqgjiwp9X1Aa3Q47 aqXxJVRvgCxZoWDiBP4cYSwlBPdZ1jyAxvOgMygimU1MAjPsrws/ozzCbsS+VuY0fs4D nqyg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=S5ZFuejiNRIJCONrLfnaRlq8oSJEoCm6xMrtpX3zFBA=; b=rEConlzX6B1UdcBPK9uHuqFI7NEuHnafksOkWRcQD17nXOwpmhgEJOaf7pofnysGDf iC6wX0eadnZw3WFK6bmwLMcyFDNrNkfYhKe4EUPE4F546kzVG+BxtJ17pyliJefm6cIG KAhYA1S/YClP5XhRKjz9N3XLtr87jZ1+YC05ArhwdnDiJz0dTC5zEoxzXal/K/5NaAKH jCZnk72Lfa82hDzvd96gPjEdmyEbKiCU0c5A+QyYJNY4VjpL2GkvYHJCeEGT7CYJxhLc HAW+x4VL2QTltiXPCnnDba3JIxc/mNc4eRBGiljiNluD0P0EQEGB21tsba7+gnc/ufd4 +v9g== X-Received: by 10.50.30.202 with SMTP id u10mr368098igh.6.1425601112535; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:18:32 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.138.69 with SMTP id qo5ls672310igb.31.canary; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:18:31 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.50.142 with SMTP id c14mr722681igo.13.1425601111972; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:18:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:18:30 -0800 (PST) From: guskant To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <6c4c0bcc-ba7c-4c74-8916-882371604210@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <176acd59d96b035a4d948f57b10ead1e.squirrel@www.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [bpfk] Month Names (WAS: official cmavo form) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_148_47957152.1425601110515" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19:02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit : > > > > 2015-03-05 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> I think {PA-masti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla are not >> very suitable for January, February etc., because the latters are rather >> related to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar >> > > Earlier I called this splicing time intervals. > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion > > {citsi}+masti+number were suggested instead since {citsi} is indeed a > splicing time interval gismu. > > [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. 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[URIs: wikipedia.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.214.189 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gusni.kantu[at]gmail.com) -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different 2.0 LONGWORDS Long string of long words ------=_Part_148_47957152.1425601110515 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_149_709486039.1425601110515" ------=_Part_149_709486039.1425601110515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19:02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2015-03-05 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> I think {PA-masti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla are no= t=20 >> very suitable for January, February etc., because the latters are rather= =20 >> related to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar >> > > Earlier I called this splicing time intervals. > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion > > {citsi}+masti+number were suggested instead since {citsi} is indeed a=20 > splicing time interval gismu. > =20 > ie zo citsi ji'a srana iku'i lo se stidi be mi cu se jicmu lo du'u se detri= =20 kei tezu'e lo nu zanfri tu'a lo re moi be lo terbri be fi lo du'u detri =20 > , while {masti} means a duration according to a calendar system. In other= =20 >> words, {la'o zoi January zoi la'o zoi March zoi dunli lo ka masti li pa = la=20 >> gregoris}. Any lujvo constructed from {masti se detri be li pa} would be= =20 >> suitable, but it seems too long for frequent use. So I've just created a= =20 >> series of zi'evla for month names in la jbovlaste. Vote up or down as yo= u=20 >> like. >> >> zi'evla created: >> masnpa masnre masnci masnvo masnmu masnxa masnze masnbi masnso masndau= =20 >> masnfei masngai masnjau masnrei (ja masnxei) masnvai=20 >> > > I wanted to create them in the form of {PAgmese} where -g- is for=20 > Gregorian however this requires multiplying entities and doesn't solve th= e=20 > problem of "tomorrow", "next hour" etc. > My suggestion is based on {se detri}, and it does not restrict the calendar= =20 to Gregorian. When you set the catendar to {lo nau me mi}, you can use=20 {masnpa} for "next month", or you can creat {maslni'upa} for "last month".= =20 However, using the series for that purpose is not very lojbo, because there= =20 are aleph-null number of months, and number of brivla should be finite, and= =20 lojban words should not conjugate. For such a purpose, we should use a=20 cmavo of MOI like {moi'o}. =20 > Also this isnot a solutions of when saying "In year 2000". Shall we creat= e=20 > thousands of new fu'ivla for each splicing year? > We could if we assume that they are regular and thus aren't needed to be= =20 > added into dictionaries. > > {moi'o} is fine but lengthy. > > As I said above, similar method to {masnPA} series is not applicable for=20 non-recurring system. Use or create a cmavo of MOI for that. As for "in year 2000", it is rather generally translated to a kind of BAI,= =20 not a brivla. I prefer saying {de'i li renonono [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o]},= =20 where [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o] is omissible for casual use. =20 > For now I ended using {de'i li pi'e PA} for months and {de'i li pi'e pi'e= =20 > PA} for years. One of course could invent a shorter cmavo instead of {pi'= e}=20 > but this two-syllableness is not a problem for some dialects. > > You seem to be confused with BAI. My suggestion is brivla based on {se=20 detri} for recurring system. Moreover, your numbering system is European style, but I prefer ISO 8601=20 style. In both case, {pi'e}s are omissible. To make the meaning clearer,=20 you can mention a phrase [noi sinxa lo nanca/masti/jeftu/djedi ku'o]. To make them shorter, suggest a series of BAI like {de'i'a} {de'i'e}=20 {de'i'i} {de'i'o} {de'i'u} if you want. I don't know how to use the fifth;= =20 may be for a century, or a day of the week? I would suggest as follows. {de'i'a li repa} : in the 21st century=20 {de'i'e li renopamu} : in the year 2015 {de'i'i li ci} : in the third month {de'i'o li mu} : in the fifth day of the week (it may be better than "in=20 the fifth week of a month" for frequent use) {de'i'u li xa} : on the sixth day of the month I still want the calendar {ve de'i} not to be fixed to Gregorian, in=20 general. =20 > (URLs of the entries are listed below.) >> >> Officially, {mas-n-re} and {mas-n-rei} are considered to be stage-3=20 >> fu'ivla, and they have the same problem as {PA-masti}/{PA-ma'i} type luj= vo,=20 >> that {malsi} (not even {masti}) should form the main place structure.=20 >> Actually, only {masnre} and {masnrei} have the form of stage-3 fu'ivla= =20 >> among the above mentioned zi'evla. The others are in stage-4 form which= =20 >> produces no similar problem. If I used 'l'-hyphen instead of 'n', they= =20 >> would have been all in stage-4 form, but I prefer 'snr'-string that is= =20 >> easier to pronounce than 'slr'.=20 >> >> {masn[PA]} is defined as follows: >> >> $x_1$ se detri li [PA] noi sinxa lo [PA] moi be lu'i ro da poi masti li= =20 >> pa gi'e pagbu $x_2$ noi nanca li pa lu'u ku'o $x_3$ boi $x_4$ >> >> $x_1$ (event/state) is in the [PA-th month/...] of a year $x_2$ at=20 >> location $x_3$, by calendar $x_4$. >> >> {masnjau} may mean Undecimber in 46 BC (=20 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar#Realignment_of_the_year ),= =20 >> Adar II on the Hebrew calendar or the intercalary month on any lunisolar= =20 >> calendar.=20 >> {masnrei} (ja {masnxei}) may mean Duodecimber in 46 BC. >> {masnvai} was created just for consistency. >> > You forgot about 5 extra days in Egyptian (12 x 30 + 5) and 4 extra days= =20 > in Baha'i calendars (19 x 19 + 4). Should them be masnjau? > =20 > I don't know if those extra days are considered to form an extra month or= =20 not. If a speaker considers them to form a month, {masnjau} is applicable= =20 of course. =20 > >> examples: >> lo cabna cu masnci lo nanca noi se detri li renopamu ku'o mi la gregoris >> i >> da masnjau lo nanca noi se detri lo muzezevo ku'o zo'e lo xebro >> i >> lo detke'u be lo nunmro be la gandis noi banli cu masnpa >> >> >> What in the case that the thirteenth month is inserted between for=20 >> example the sixth and the seventh? I'm not sure, the lojban translation = may=20 >> depend on $x_4$, say {1,2,3,4,5,6,13,7,8,9,10,11,12} or=20 >> {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13}, both are possible. >> >> On another planet, we might need the 16th or higher month, then just=20 >> create {masnpaxa} and so on. >> >> For the same reason, {PA-dei} type lujvo seem not to be very suitable fo= r=20 >> Monday, Tuesday etc., though I have not yet inserted the corresponding= =20 >> zi'evla into la jbovlaste. >> > > Note that here I oppose mapping number 1 to Monday since this may confuse= =20 > a lot of people, notable speaking Portuguese. > I ended using {lurdei} system. > > Some existing cultures conflict on the definition of names of days of the= =20 week on Gregorian. {lurdei}-system is not suitable for Chinese speakers,=20 who are the most on the Earth. I think Lojban must select one as a default= =20 use, just like we did on the meaning of {na go'i} in the section 15.9 of=20 CLL. That selection does not mean excluding other cultures, because we have= =20 x4 to select a calendar. I prefer {jednpa} for "the first day of a week", {jefnpa} for "the first week of a month", {detnpa} for "the first day of a month", etc.=20 to {PAvdei} system and {lurdei} system because of the basis {se detri} and= =20 the consistency in all recurring items of a calendar. mu'o=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_149_709486039.1425601110515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19:02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a = =C3=A9crit :


2015-03-05 12:32 GMT+03:00 gusk= ant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
I think {PA-masti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla = are not very suitable for January, February etc., because the latters are r= ather related to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar
=

Earlier I called this splicing time interv= als.
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/= lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion

{citsi}+masti+number were sug= gested instead since {citsi} is indeed a splicing time interval gismu.
 

<= br>
ie zo citsi ji'a srana iku'i lo se stidi be mi cu se jicmu lo= du'u se detri kei tezu'e lo nu zanfri tu'a lo re moi be lo terbri be fi lo= du'u detri


 
, while {masti} means = a duration according to a calendar system. In other words, {la'o zoi Januar= y zoi la'o zoi March zoi dunli lo ka masti li pa la gregoris}. Any lujvo co= nstructed from {masti se detri be li pa} would be suitable, but it seems to= o long for frequent use. So I've just created a series of zi'evla for month= names in la jbovlaste. Vote up or down as you like.

zi'evla created:
masnpa masnre masnci masnvo masnmu masnxa mas= nze masnbi masnso masndau masnfei masngai masnjau masnrei (ja masnxei) masn= vai 

I wanted to create th= em in the form of {PAgmese}  where -g- is for Gregorian however this r= equires multiplying entities and doesn't solve the problem of "tomorrow", "= next hour" etc.

My suggestion is based on {se detri}, and it does not restrict = the calendar to Gregorian. When you set the catendar to {lo nau me mi}, you= can use {masnpa} for "next month", or you can creat {maslni'upa} for "last= month". However, using the series for that purpose is not very lojbo, beca= use there are aleph-null number of months, and number of brivla should be f= inite, and lojban words should not conjugate. For such a purpose, we should= use a cmavo of MOI like {moi'o}.


&= nbsp;
Also this isnot a solutions of when sayi= ng "In year 2000". Shall we create thousands of new fu'ivla for each splici= ng year?
We could if we assume that they are regular and thus are= n't needed to be added into dictionaries.

{moi'o} = is fine but lengthy.



As I said above, similar method to {masnPA}= series is not applicable for non-recurring system. Use or create a cmavo o= f MOI for that.

As for "in year 2000", it is rathe= r generally translated to a kind of BAI, not a brivla. I prefer saying {de'= i li renonono [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o]}, where [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o] i= s omissible for casual use.


 <= /div>
For now I ended using {de'i li pi'e= PA} for months and {de'i li pi'e pi'e PA} for years. One of course could i= nvent a shorter cmavo instead of {pi'e} but this two-syllableness is not a = problem for some dialects.



You seem to be confused with BAI. My = suggestion is brivla based on {se detri} for recurring system.
Moreover, your numbering system is European style, but I prefe= r ISO 8601 style. In both case, {pi'e}s are omissible. To make the meaning = clearer, you can mention a phrase [noi sinxa lo nanca/masti/jeftu/djedi ku'= o].

To make them shorter, suggest a series of BAI = like {de'i'a} {de'i'e} {de'i'i} {de'i'o} {de'i'u} if you want. I don't know= how to use the fifth; may be for a century, or a day of the week? I would = suggest as follows.
{de'i'a li repa} : in the 21st century <= /div>
{de'i'e li renopamu} : in the year 2015
{de'i'i li ci} = : in the third month
{de'i'o li mu} : in the fifth day of the wee= k (it may be better than "in the fifth week of a month" for frequent use)
{de'i'u li xa} : on the sixth day of the month

I still want the calendar {ve de'i} not to be fixed to Gregorian, in = general.


 
(URLs of the entries= are listed below.)

Officially, {mas-n-re} and {ma= s-n-rei} are considered to be stage-3 fu'ivla, and they have the same probl= em as {PA-masti}/{PA-ma'i} type lujvo, that {malsi} (not even {masti}) shou= ld form the main place structure. Actually, only {masnre} and {masnrei} hav= e the form of stage-3 fu'ivla among the above mentioned zi'evla. The others= are in stage-4 form which produces no similar problem. If I used 'l'-hyphe= n instead of 'n', they would have been all in stage-4 form, but I prefer 's= nr'-string that is easier to pronounce than 'slr'. 

{masn[PA]} is defined as follows:

$x_1$ se = detri li [PA] noi sinxa lo [PA] moi be lu'i ro da poi masti li pa gi'e pagb= u $x_2$ noi nanca li pa lu'u ku'o $x_3$ boi $x_4$

= $x_1$ (event/state) is in the [PA-th month/...] of a year $x_2$ at location= $x_3$, by calendar $x_4$.

{masnjau} may mean Unde= cimber in 46 BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/= Julian_calendar#Realignment_of_the_year ), Adar II on the Hebrew c= alendar or the intercalary month on any lunisolar calendar. 
{masnrei} (ja {masnxei}) may mean Duodecimber in 46 BC.
{masnvai= } was created just for consistency.
You forgot= about 5 extra days in Egyptian (12 x 30 + 5) and 4 extra days in Baha'i ca= lendars (19 x 19 + 4). Should them be masnjau?
 
=

I don't know if those extra da= ys are considered to form an extra month or not. If a speaker considers the= m to form a month, {masnjau} is applicable of course.

<= div>
 

examples:
lo cabna cu masnci lo nanc= a noi se detri li renopamu ku'o mi la gregoris
i
da mas= njau lo nanca noi se detri lo muzezevo ku'o zo'e lo xebro
i
=
lo detke'u be lo nunmro be la gandis noi banli cu masnpa

What in the case that the thirteenth month is in= serted between for example the sixth and the seventh? I'm not sure, the loj= ban translation may depend on $x_4$, say {1,2,3,4,5,6,13,7,8,9,10,11,1= 2} or {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13}, both are possible.
On another planet, we might need the 16th or higher month, the= n just create {masnpaxa} and so on.

For the same r= eason, {PA-dei} type lujvo seem not to be very suitable for Monday, Tuesday= etc., though I have not yet inserted the corresponding zi'evla into la jbo= vlaste.

Note that here I oppose= mapping number 1 to Monday since this may confuse a lot of people, notable= speaking Portuguese.
I ended using {lurdei} system.


Some existing cu= ltures conflict on the definition of names of days of the week on Gregorian= . {lurdei}-system is not suitable for Chinese speakers, who are the most on= the Earth. I think Lojban must select one as a default use, just like we d= id on the meaning of {na go'i} in the section 15.9 of CLL. That selection d= oes not mean excluding other cultures, because we have x4 to select a calen= dar.

I prefer
{jednpa} for "the first da= y of a week",
{jefnpa} for "the first week of a month",
{detnpa} for "the first day of a month", etc. 
to {PAvdei} = system and {lurdei} system because of the basis {se detri} and the consiste= ncy in all recurring items of a calendar.

mu'o&nbs= p;

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