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[2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i8si53259wif.1.2015.03.05.22.19.10 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::229; Received: by wghl18 with SMTP id l18so10731285wgh.5 for ; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:19:10 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.12.233 with SMTP id b9mr28937280wic.49.1425622750864; Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:19:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Mar 2015 22:18:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6c4c0bcc-ba7c-4c74-8916-882371604210@googlegroups.com> References: <176acd59d96b035a4d948f57b10ead1e.squirrel@www.ccil.org> <6c4c0bcc-ba7c-4c74-8916-882371604210@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:18:49 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Month Names (WAS: official cmavo form) To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c24114a62a2d051098a970 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.4 X-Spam_score_int: 4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: 2015-03-06 3:18 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > > Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19:02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a écrit : >> >> >> >> 2015-03-05 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >>> I think {PA-masti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla are >>> not very suitable for January, February etc., because the latters are >>> rather related to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar >>> >> >> Earlier I called this splicing time intervals. >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion >> >> {citsi}+masti+number were suggested instead since {citsi} is indeed a >> splicing time interval gismu. >> >> > > > ie zo citsi ji'a srana iku'i lo se stidi be mi cu se jicmu lo du'u se > detri kei tezu'e lo nu zanfri tu'a lo re moi be lo terbri be fi lo du'u > detri > > > > >> , while {masti} means a duration according to a calendar system. In other >>> words, {la'o zoi January zoi la'o zoi March zoi dunli lo ka masti li pa la >>> gregoris}. Any lujvo constructed from {masti se detri be li pa} would be >>> suitable, but it seems too long for frequent use. So I've just created a >>> series of zi'evla for month names in la jbovlaste. Vote up or down as you >>> like. >>> >>> zi'evla created: >>> masnpa masnre masnci masnvo masnmu masnxa masnze masnbi masnso masndau >>> masnfei masngai masnjau masnrei (ja masnxei) masnvai >>> >> >> I wanted to create them in the form of {PAgmese} where -g- is for >> Gregorian however this requires multiplying entities and doesn't solve the >> problem of "tomorrow", "next hour" etc. >> > > > My suggestion is based on {se detri}, and it does not restrict the > calendar to Gregorian. When you set the catendar to {lo nau me mi}, you can > use {masnpa} for "next month", or you can creat {maslni'upa} for "last > month". > This will require some explanations in the grammar to avoid adding infinite number of such words to dictionaries. 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[URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [74.125.82.62 listed in wl.mailspike.net] -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different 2.0 LONGWORDS Long string of long words --001a11c24114a62a2d051098a970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-03-06 3:18 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > > Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19:02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> >> 2015-03-05 12:32 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >>> I think {PA-masti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla are >>> not very suitable for January, February etc., because the latters are >>> rather related to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar >>> >> >> Earlier I called this splicing time intervals. >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion >> >> {citsi}+masti+number were suggested instead since {citsi} is indeed a >> splicing time interval gismu. >> >> > > > ie zo citsi ji'a srana iku'i lo se stidi be mi cu se jicmu lo du'u se > detri kei tezu'e lo nu zanfri tu'a lo re moi be lo terbri be fi lo du'u > detri > > > > >> , while {masti} means a duration according to a calendar system. In othe= r >>> words, {la'o zoi January zoi la'o zoi March zoi dunli lo ka masti li pa= la >>> gregoris}. Any lujvo constructed from {masti se detri be li pa} would b= e >>> suitable, but it seems too long for frequent use. So I've just created = a >>> series of zi'evla for month names in la jbovlaste. Vote up or down as y= ou >>> like. >>> >>> zi'evla created: >>> masnpa masnre masnci masnvo masnmu masnxa masnze masnbi masnso masndau >>> masnfei masngai masnjau masnrei (ja masnxei) masnvai >>> >> >> I wanted to create them in the form of {PAgmese} where -g- is for >> Gregorian however this requires multiplying entities and doesn't solve t= he >> problem of "tomorrow", "next hour" etc. >> > > > My suggestion is based on {se detri}, and it does not restrict the > calendar to Gregorian. When you set the catendar to {lo nau me mi}, you c= an > use {masnpa} for "next month", or you can creat {maslni'upa} for "last > month". > This will require some explanations in the grammar to avoid adding infinite number of such words to dictionaries. > However, using the series for that purpose is not very lojbo, because > there are aleph-null number of months, and number of brivla should be > finite, and lojban words should not conjugate. For such a purpose, we > should use a cmavo of MOI like {moi'o}. > > > > >> Also this isnot a solutions of when saying "In year 2000". Shall we >> create thousands of new fu'ivla for each splicing year? >> We could if we assume that they are regular and thus aren't needed to be >> added into dictionaries. >> >> {moi'o} is fine but lengthy. >> >> > > As I said above, similar method to {masnPA} series is not applicable for > non-recurring system. Use or create a cmavo of MOI for that. > > As for "in year 2000", it is rather generally translated to a kind of BAI= , > not a brivla. I prefer saying {de'i li renonono [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o]= }, > where [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o] is omissible for casual use. > > > > >> For now I ended using {de'i li pi'e PA} for months and {de'i li pi'e pi'= e >> PA} for years. One of course could invent a shorter cmavo instead of {pi= 'e} >> but this two-syllableness is not a problem for some dialects. >> >> > > You seem to be confused with BAI. My suggestion is brivla based on {se > detri} for recurring system. > BAI are usually shorter. > > Moreover, your numbering system is European style, but I prefer ISO 8601 > style. In both case, {pi'e}s are omissible. To make the meaning clearer, > you can mention a phrase [noi sinxa lo nanca/masti/jeftu/djedi ku'o]. > For me one number in {de'i} denotes day of month , two numbers D-M, three numbers D-M-Y, four numbers D-week number-M-Y. Otherwise {de'i li pare} becomes ambiguous between Day 12 / December / Year 12 A.D. > To make them shorter, suggest a series of BAI like {de'i'a} {de'i'e} > {de'i'i} {de'i'o} {de'i'u} if you want. I don't know how to use the fifth= ; > may be for a century, or a day of the week? I would suggest as follows. > {de'i'a li repa} : in the 21st century > {de'i'e li renopamu} : in the year 2015 > {de'i'i li ci} : in the third month > {de'i'o li mu} : in the fifth day of the week (it may be better than "in > the fifth week of a month" for frequent use) > {de'i'u li xa} : on the sixth day of the month > > I still want the calendar {ve de'i} not to be fixed to Gregorian, in > general. > > > > >> (URLs of the entries are listed below.) >>> >>> Officially, {mas-n-re} and {mas-n-rei} are considered to be stage-3 >>> fu'ivla, and they have the same problem as {PA-masti}/{PA-ma'i} type lu= jvo, >>> that {malsi} (not even {masti}) should form the main place structure. >>> Actually, only {masnre} and {masnrei} have the form of stage-3 fu'ivla >>> among the above mentioned zi'evla. The others are in stage-4 form which >>> produces no similar problem. If I used 'l'-hyphen instead of 'n', they >>> would have been all in stage-4 form, but I prefer 'snr'-string that is >>> easier to pronounce than 'slr'. >>> >>> {masn[PA]} is defined as follows: >>> >>> $x_1$ se detri li [PA] noi sinxa lo [PA] moi be lu'i ro da poi masti li >>> pa gi'e pagbu $x_2$ noi nanca li pa lu'u ku'o $x_3$ boi $x_4$ >>> >>> $x_1$ (event/state) is in the [PA-th month/...] of a year $x_2$ at >>> location $x_3$, by calendar $x_4$. >>> >>> {masnjau} may mean Undecimber in 46 BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >>> Julian_calendar#Realignment_of_the_year ), Adar II on the Hebrew >>> calendar or the intercalary month on any lunisolar calendar. >>> {masnrei} (ja {masnxei}) may mean Duodecimber in 46 BC. >>> {masnvai} was created just for consistency. >>> >> You forgot about 5 extra days in Egyptian (12 x 30 + 5) and 4 extra days >> in Baha'i calendars (19 x 19 + 4). Should them be masnjau? >> >> > > I don't know if those extra days are considered to form an extra month or > not. If a speaker considers them to form a month, {masnjau} is applicable > of course. > > > > >> >>> examples: >>> lo cabna cu masnci lo nanca noi se detri li renopamu ku'o mi la gregori= s >>> i >>> da masnjau lo nanca noi se detri lo muzezevo ku'o zo'e lo xebro >>> i >>> lo detke'u be lo nunmro be la gandis noi banli cu masnpa >>> >>> >>> What in the case that the thirteenth month is inserted between for >>> example the sixth and the seventh? I'm not sure, the lojban translation= may >>> depend on $x_4$, say {1,2,3,4,5,6,13,7,8,9,10,11,12} or >>> {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13}, both are possible. >>> >>> On another planet, we might need the 16th or higher month, then just >>> create {masnpaxa} and so on. >>> >>> For the same reason, {PA-dei} type lujvo seem not to be very suitable >>> for Monday, Tuesday etc., though I have not yet inserted the correspond= ing >>> zi'evla into la jbovlaste. >>> >> >> Note that here I oppose mapping number 1 to Monday since this may confus= e >> a lot of people, notable speaking Portuguese. >> I ended using {lurdei} system. >> >> > Some existing cultures conflict on the definition of names of days of the > week on Gregorian. {lurdei}-system is not suitable for Chinese speakers, > who are the most on the Earth. > In fact I'd just suggest using different systems for ISO, for Chinese world etc. Of course, its own Lojbani weekday numbering system might be the best. {lurdei} system is based on planets and is a clearly an artlang thing. I don't oppose other systems, I'm only paying attention to possible confusion that 1=3DMonday can produce so better to learn days of weeks by some associations. In fact {djacydei} or {djedrdjacu} or whatever with long rafsi can be even more catchy. > I think Lojban must select one as a default use, just like we did on the > meaning of {na go'i} in the section 15.9 of CLL. That selection does not > mean excluding other cultures, because we have x4 to select a calendar. > > I prefer > {jednpa} for "the first day of a week", > {jefnpa} for "the first week of a month", > {detnpa} for "the first day of a month", etc. > to {PAvdei} system and {lurdei} system because of the basis {se detri} an= d > the consistency in all recurring items of a calendar. > > mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c24114a62a2d051098a970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-03-06 3:18 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:


Le jeudi 5 mars 2015 19= :02:23 UTC+9, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


2015-03-05 12:32 = GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.= com>:
I think {PA-m= asti} or {PA-ma'i} type lujvo or the derived fu'ivla are not very s= uitable for January, February etc., because the latters are rather related = to {detri} or {detke'u}, a position on a calendar

Earlier I called this splicing time intervals.
=
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/xfawt6XTkW4/discussion

{citsi}+masti+number= were suggested instead since {citsi} is indeed a splicing time interval gi= smu.
=C2=A0


ie zo citsi ji'a srana iku'i lo se st= idi be mi cu se jicmu lo du'u se detri kei tezu'e lo nu zanfri tu&#= 39;a lo re moi be lo terbri be fi lo du'u detri


=C2=A0
, while {masti} means a duration according to a calendar system. In= other words, {la'o zoi January zoi la'o zoi March zoi dunli lo ka = masti li pa la gregoris}. Any lujvo constructed from {masti se detri be li = pa} would be suitable, but it seems too long for frequent use. So I've = just created a series of zi'evla for month names in la jbovlaste. Vote = up or down as you like.

zi'evla created:
=
masnpa masnre masnci masnvo masnmu masnxa masnze masnbi masnso masndau= masnfei masngai masnjau masnrei (ja masnxei) masnvai=C2=A0

I wanted to create them in the form of {PAgmes= e} =C2=A0where -g- is for Gregorian however this requires multiplying entit= ies and doesn't solve the problem of "tomorrow", "next h= our" etc.


=
My suggestion is based on {se detri}, and it does not res= trict the calendar to Gregorian. When you set the catendar to {lo nau me mi= }, you can use {masnpa} for "next month", or you can creat {masln= i'upa} for "last month".
This wi= ll require some explanations in the grammar to avoid adding infinite number= of such words to dictionaries.
=C2=A0
However, using the series for that purpose is not very l= ojbo, because there are aleph-null number of months, and number of brivla s= hould be finite, and lojban words should not conjugate. For such a purpose,= we should use a cmavo of MOI like {moi'o}.
=

=C2=A0
Also this isnot a solutions of when s= aying "In year 2000". Shall we create thousands of new fu'ivl= a for each splicing year?
We could if we assume that they are reg= ular and thus aren't needed to be added into dictionaries.
{moi'o} is fine but lengthy.



As I said a= bove, similar method to {masnPA} series is not applicable for non-recurring= system. Use or create a cmavo of MOI for that.

As= for "in year 2000", it is rather generally translated to a kind = of BAI, not a brivla. I prefer saying {de'i li renonono [noi sinxa lo n= anca ku'o]}, where [noi sinxa lo nanca ku'o] is omissible for casua= l use.


=C2=A0
For now I ended using {de'i li pi'e PA} for months and {de&= #39;i li pi'e pi'e PA} for years. One of course could invent a shor= ter cmavo instead of {pi'e} but this two-syllableness is not a problem = for some dialects.

=

You seem to be confused with BAI. My s= uggestion is brivla based on {se detri} for recurring system.
BAI are usually shorter.
=C2=A0

Moreover, your numbering system i= s European style, but I prefer ISO 8601 style. In both case, {pi'e}s ar= e omissible. To make the meaning clearer, you can mention a phrase [noi sin= xa lo nanca/masti/jeftu/djedi ku'o].

<= /div>
For me one number in {de'i} denotes day of month , two number= s D-M, three numbers D-M-Y, four numbers D-week number-M-Y.
Other= wise {de'i li pare} becomes ambiguous between Day 12 / December / Year = 12 A.D.


To make them shorter, suggest a series of BAI like {de'i'a} = {de'i'e} {de'i'i} {de'i'o} {de'i'u} if you = want. I don't know how to use the fifth; may be for a century, or a day= of the week? I would suggest as follows.
{de'i'a li repa= } : in the 21st century=C2=A0
{de'i'e li renopamu} : in t= he year 2015
{de'i'i li ci} : in the third month
{de'i'o li mu} : in the fifth day of the week (it may be better t= han "in the fifth week of a month" for frequent use)
{d= e'i'u li xa} : on the sixth day of the month=C2=A0

I still want = the calendar {ve de'i} not to be fixed to Gregorian, in general.=C2=A0<= /div>
=


=C2=A0
(URLs of the entries are listed below.)

<= div>Officially, {mas-n-re} and {mas-n-rei} are considered to be stage-3 fu&= #39;ivla, and they have the same problem as {PA-masti}/{PA-ma'i} type l= ujvo, that {malsi} (not even {masti}) should form the main place structure.= Actually, only {masnre} and {masnrei} have the form of stage-3 fu'ivla= among the above mentioned zi'evla. The others are in stage-4 form whic= h produces no similar problem. If I used 'l'-hyphen instead of '= ;n', they would have been all in stage-4 form, but I prefer 'snr= 9;-string that is easier to pronounce than 'slr'.=C2=A0
<= br>
{masn[PA]} is defined as follows:

$x= _1$ se detri li [PA] noi sinxa lo [PA] moi be lu'i ro da poi masti li p= a gi'e pagbu $x_2$ noi nanca li pa lu'u ku'o $x_3$ boi $x_4$

$x_1$ (event/state) is in the [PA-th month/...] of a= year $x_2$ at location $x_3$, by calendar $x_4$.

= {masnjau} may mean Undecimber in 46 BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar#Realignment_<= /u>of_the_year ), Adar II on the Hebrew calendar or the intercalary mon= th on any lunisolar calendar.=C2=A0
{masnrei} (ja {masnxei}) may = mean Duodecimber in 46 BC.
{masnvai} was created just for consist= ency.
You forgot about 5 extra days in Egyptia= n (12 x 30 + 5) and 4 extra days in Baha'i calendars (19 x 19 + 4). Sho= uld them be masnjau?
=C2=A0
<= div>
I don't know if those extra days are consider= ed to form an extra month or not. If a speaker considers them to form a mon= th, {masnjau} is applicable of course.


=C2=A0

examples:
lo cabna cu masnci lo nanca noi se detri li renopamu= ku'o mi la gregoris
i
da masnjau lo nanca noi se d= etri lo muzezevo ku'o zo'e lo xebro
i
lo detke&= #39;u be lo nunmro be la gandis noi banli cu masnpa


What in the case that the thirteenth month is inserted bet= ween for example the sixth and the seventh? I'm not sure, the lojban tr= anslation may depend on $x_4$, say {1,2,3,4,5,6,13,7,8,9,10,11,12} o= r {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13}, both are possible.

=
On another planet, we might need the 16th or higher month, then = just create {masnpaxa} and so on.

For the same rea= son, {PA-dei} type lujvo seem not to be very suitable for Monday, Tuesday e= tc., though I have not yet inserted the corresponding zi'evla into la j= bovlaste.

Note that here I oppo= se mapping number 1 to Monday since this may confuse a lot of people, notab= le speaking Portuguese.
I ended using {lurdei} system.
=


Some ex= isting cultures conflict on the definition of names of days of the week on = Gregorian. {lurdei}-system is not suitable for Chinese speakers, who are th= e most on the Earth.

In fact I&= #39;d just suggest using different systems for ISO, for Chinese world etc.= =C2=A0Of course, its own Lojbani weekday numbering system might be the best= .

{lurdei} system is based on planets and is a cle= arly an artlang thing.

I don't oppose other sy= stems, I'm only paying attention to possible confusion that 1=3DMonday = can produce so better to learn days of weeks by some associations. In fact = {djacydei} or {djedrdjacu} or whatever with long rafsi can be even more cat= chy.


=C2=A0
=
I think Lojban must select one as a default use, jus= t like we did on the meaning of {na go'i} in the section 15.9 of CLL. T= hat selection does not mean excluding other cultures, because we have x4 to= select a calendar.

I prefer
{jednpa} for "the first day of a week",
{jefnpa} = for "the first week of a month",
{detnpa} for "the= first day of a month", etc.=C2=A0
to {PAvdei} system= and {lurdei} system because of the basis {se detri} and the consistency in= all recurring items of a calendar.=C2=A0

mu'o=C2=A0

--
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