Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:42:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: FA as a TAG (Was: One cannot refer to inner nodes in
 Lojban PEG)
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Le jeudi 9 avril 2015 09:15:04 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:02 PM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com <javascript:=
>
> > wrote:
>>
>> Le mercredi 8 avril 2015 06:52:23 UTC+9, Jacob Errington a =C3=A9crit :
>>>
>>>
>>> .i ko'a brodrfV lo du'u broda <=3D> broda fV ko'a
>>>
>>> The definition should be then :
>>
>> .i ko'a brodrfV lo ka fV ce'u broda <=3D> broda fV ko'a
>>
>
> I don't know. Is it different from "ckaji"?=20
>
>
bridi of {brodrfV} series form a subset of bridi of {ckaji}.
The difference is only that {brodrfV} does not permit plural {ce'u}, and=20
that the place of the only {ce'u} is explicit by the last part of the word.

=20

> .i ca'e ko'e du lo ka ce'u citka lo cakla kei lo ka lo cakla cu se citka=
=20
> ce'u
>
> .i ca'e ko'a citka lo cakla
>
> .i xu ko'a brodrfa ko'e .i xu ko'a brodrfe ko'e .i xu ko'a brodrfi ko'e
>
>
The last line should be formed with {citkrfV} and {selcitkrfV}, or more=20
precisely, {fe zei lo zei cakla zei citkrfV} and {fa zei lo zei cakla zei=
=20
selcitkrfV}.

.i xu ko'a citkrfa ko'e .i go'i
.i xu ko'a citkrfe ko'e .i na go'i
.i xu ko'a citkrfi ko'e .i na go'i
.i xu ko'a selcitkrfa ko'e .i na go'i
.i xu ko'a selcitkrfe ko'e .i go'i
.i xu ko'a selcitkrfi ko'e .i na go'i


=20

> The problem is that FA doesn't deal with propositions or with properties.=
=20
> A proposition is independent of the text used to express it. A property=
=20
> also is independent of the text used to express it. Different texts can b=
e=20
> used to express the same proposition, or the same property.=20
>
> We can't have predicates that relate a proposition or a property to its=
=20
> "fa-argument", its "fe-argument", and so on, because=20
> propositions/properties don't have such things. It is only some of the=20
> texts used to express the propositions/properties that can may consist of=
 a=20
> predicate with fa-/fe-/fi-arguments, but not the du'u/ka themselves.
>
> We could have "ko'a brodrfa lu lo nixli cu citka lo cakla li'u" meaning=
=20
> that "ko'a du lo nixli", (via "ko'a du la'e lo'u lo nixli le'u") but I=20
> don't think it really makes sense with du'u or ka.
>
>

I agree, but my understanding of la_tsani's idea is only creating a mapping=
=20
from a range of F(x_1, x_2, ...) to a range of G(x_i) by fixing the values=
=20
x_j to constants c_j (i!=3Dj).=20
This mapping does not impose any excessive role to FA.=20

x_1 of {brodrfV} is not related to propositions.=20
I would suggest {ka} instead of {du'u} in order to enjoy the open sentence=
=20
(therefore, it does not signify a proposition) in the clause. {brod-} part=
=20
of {brodrfV} means a predicate that have all the arguments other than x_i=
=20
being substituted by constants.

In this sense, {ka} and {ckaji} of Lojban should have broader meaning than=
=20
"property" of English.


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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le jeudi 9 avril 2015 09:15:04 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=
=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:02 PM, guska=
nt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfu=
scated-mailto=3D"L2Y_8w2dsygJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D=
'javascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return tru=
e;">gusni...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span>Le mercredi 8 avril 2015 06:52:23 UTC+9, Jacob Errin=
gton a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><span><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div=
>.i ko'a brodrfV lo du'u broda &lt;=3D&gt; broda fV ko'a<br><br></div></div=
></div></div></span></div></blockquote><div>The definition should be then :=
</div><div><br></div><div>.i ko'a brodrfV lo ka fV ce'u broda &lt;=3D&gt; b=
roda fV ko'a</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't know. Is i=
t different from "ckaji"?&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>bridi of {brodrfV} series form a subset of brid=
i of {ckaji}.</div><div>The difference is only that {brodrfV} does not perm=
it plural {ce'u}, and that the place of the only {ce'u} is explicit by the =
last part of the word.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div></div><div>.i ca'e ko'e du lo ka ce'u citka lo cakla kei lo ka lo =
cakla cu se citka ce'u</div><div><br></div><div>.i ca'e ko'a citka lo cakla=
</div><div><br></div><div>.i xu ko'a brodrfa ko'e .i xu ko'a brodrfe ko'e .=
i xu ko'a brodrfi ko'e</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>The last line should be formed with {citkrfV} and {selci=
tkrfV}, or more precisely, {fe zei lo zei cakla zei citkrfV} and {fa zei lo=
 zei cakla zei selcitkrfV}.</div><div><br></div><div>.i xu ko'a citkrfa ko'=
e .i go'i</div><div>.i xu ko'a citkrfe ko'e .i na go'i</div><div>.i xu ko'a=
 citkrfi ko'e .i na go'i</div><div>.i xu ko'a selcitkrfa ko'e .i na go'i</d=
iv><div>.i xu ko'a selcitkrfe ko'e .i go'i</div><div>.i xu ko'a selcitkrfi =
ko'e .i na go'i</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div></div><div>The problem is that FA doesn't deal with propos=
itions or with properties. A proposition is independent of the text used to=
 express it. A property also is independent of the text used to express it.=
 Different texts can be used to express the same proposition, or the same p=
roperty.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We can't have predicates that relat=
e a proposition or a property to its "fa-argument", its "fe-argument", and =
so on, because propositions/properties don't have such things. It is only s=
ome of the texts used to express the propositions/properties that can may c=
onsist of a predicate with fa-/fe-/fi-arguments, but not the du'u/ka themse=
lves.</div><div><br></div><div>We could have "ko'a brodrfa lu lo nixli cu c=
itka lo cakla li'u" meaning that "ko'a du lo nixli", (via "ko'a du la'e lo'=
u lo nixli le'u") but I don't think it really makes sense with du'u or ka.<=
/div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>I agree, but my understanding of la_tsani's idea is only creatin=
g a mapping from a range of F(x_1, x_2, ...) to a range of G(x_i) by fixing=
 the values x_j to constants c_j (i!=3Dj).&nbsp;</div><div>This mapping doe=
s not impose any excessive role to FA.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>x_1 o=
f {brodrfV} is not related to propositions.&nbsp;</div><div>I would suggest=
 {ka} instead of {du'u} in order to enjoy the open sentence (therefore, it =
does not signify a proposition) in the clause. {brod-} part of {brodrfV} me=
ans a predicate that have all the arguments other than x_i being substitute=
d by constants.</div><div><br></div><div>In this sense, {ka} and {ckaji} of=
 Lojban should have broader meaning than "property" of English.</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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