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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 11:07:15 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fZnVVvsmLZRdq93n8L8W+ne2zr7uyOGmj0pK_c7FtHoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: FA as a TAG (Was: One cannot refer to inner nodes in
 Lojban PEG)
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:25 AM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> fa ko'a citka ko'e === fi'o citkrfa ko'a citka ko'e ......S1
>
> ko'a citkrfa lo du'u ko'a citka ko'e ......S2
>
> Then, a statement {fi'o citkrfa ko'a citka ko'e} does not necessarily
> signify the same proposition as {ko'a citka ko'e} in S2.
> The former signifies a proposition that ko'a who eats ko'e is involved in
> a proposition that zo'e eats ko'e.
> An interpretation of ko'a!=zo'e makes sense when a tapeworm eats things
> eaten by the host, for example.
>

OK, but how is the ka-version different, given that:

fi'o citkrfa ko'a citka ko'e = fi'o citkrfa ko'a fa zo'e citka ko'e


> This ambiguity of interpretation comes from fixing the proposition in x2 of
> {citkrfa}.
>
> In order to make S1 always true, x2 of {citkrfa} should not be a
> proposition but an open sentence, which leaves one place be free for use in
> any other statement, and fixes referents of the other arguments to the same
> as the proposition intended.
>

I don't see how you insure that zo'e must take the value ko'a with the
ka-version. Why can't one be the tapeworm and the other the host with the
ka-version of citkrfa, given that both satisfy the same property?


> Then, when {fi'o citkrfa ko'a} appears in a statement, we can have a
> consistent interpretation that {ko'a} occupies the free place of the open
> sentence, and this occupation brings a proposition intended.
>

I think I must be missing something. It seems that "citkrfa" can't be an
ordinary predicate that could be found in the dictionary, but one that
changes its meaning depending on which sentence it is used in. Maybe "fa"
could be something like "fi'o te bridi be lo ka ce'u nei", where "te bridi
be lo ka ce'u nei" is a predicate that relates an argument x1 to the
proposition about x1 that results from filling "lo ka ce'u nei" with x1. I
don't think we escape the tapeworm situation with this either though. OTOH,
"fa ko'a fa zo'e citka ko'e" also allows for the tapeworm situation,
doesn't it?


> The reasonable English translation of definition of {brodrfV} that
> satisfies
>
> x1 brodrfV lo ka fV ce'u broda <=> broda fV x1
>
> would be:
>
> x1 brings a proposition by satisfying a formula stated in {ka}-clause.
>

But that's de definition of "ckaji". Surely the definition of "citkrfa" has
to say something about eating.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:25 AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></div><d=
iv>fa ko&#39;a citka ko&#39;e =3D=3D=3D fi&#39;o citkrfa ko&#39;a citka ko&=
#39;e ......S1</div><div><br></div><div>ko&#39;a citkrfa lo du&#39;u ko&#39=
;a citka ko&#39;e ......S2</div><div><br></div><div>Then, a statement {fi&#=
39;o citkrfa ko&#39;a citka ko&#39;e} does not necessarily signify the same=
 proposition as {ko&#39;a citka ko&#39;e} in S2.=C2=A0<br></div><div>The fo=
rmer signifies a proposition that ko&#39;a who eats ko&#39;e is involved in=
 a proposition that zo&#39;e eats ko&#39;e.=C2=A0</div><div>An interpretati=
on of ko&#39;a!=3Dzo&#39;e makes sense when a tapeworm eats things eaten by=
 the host, for example.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>O=
K, but how is the ka-version different, given that:</div><div><br></div><di=
v>fi&#39;o citkrfa ko&#39;a citka ko&#39;e =3D fi&#39;o citkrfa ko&#39;a fa=
 zo&#39;e citka ko&#39;e</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><div>This ambiguity of interpretation comes from fixing the prop=
osition in x2 of</div><div>{citkrfa}.</div><div><br></div><div>In order to =
make S1 always true, x2 of {citkrfa} should not be a proposition but an ope=
n sentence, which leaves one place be free for use in any other statement, =
and fixes referents of the other arguments to the same as the proposition i=
ntended.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;=
t see how you insure that zo&#39;e must take the value ko&#39;a with the ka=
-version. Why can&#39;t one be the tapeworm and the other the host with the=
 ka-version of citkrfa, given that both satisfy the same property?</div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Then, when {fi=
9;o citkrfa ko&#39;a} appears in a statement, we can have a consistent inte=
rpretation that {ko&#39;a} occupies the free place of the open sentence, an=
d this occupation brings a proposition intended.</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I think I must be missing something. It seems that =
&quot;citkrfa&quot; can&#39;t be an ordinary predicate that could be found =
in the dictionary, but one that changes its meaning depending on which sent=
ence it is used in. Maybe &quot;fa&quot; could be something like &quot;fi&#=
39;o te bridi be lo ka ce&#39;u nei&quot;, where &quot;te bridi be lo ka ce=
&#39;u nei&quot; is a predicate that relates an argument x1 to the proposit=
ion about x1 that results from filling &quot;lo ka ce&#39;u nei&quot; with =
x1. I don&#39;t think we escape the tapeworm situation with this either tho=
ugh. OTOH, &quot;fa ko&#39;a fa zo&#39;e citka ko&#39;e&quot; also allows f=
or the tapeworm situation, doesn&#39;t it?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>The reasonable English translation o=
f definition of {brodrfV} that satisfies</div><div><br></div><div>x1 brodrf=
V lo ka fV ce&#39;u broda &lt;=3D&gt; broda fV x1=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>would be:</div><div><br></div><div>x1 brings a proposition by satisfy=
ing a formula stated in {ka}-clause.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>But that&#39;s de definition of &quot;ckaji&quot;. Surely=
 the definition of &quot;citkrfa&quot; has to say something about eating.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></di=
v></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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