Received: from mail-oi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]:34286) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Ym35h-0001LB-9a; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:38:09 -0700 Received: by oiax69 with SMTP id x69sf19651596oia.1; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=iKRk8r0am4G6p1NWx/fEsNyE3bcAznmT7Eg81Wbqhik=; b=P8DV/8yT665wr0v0vHtDZjNwjaLHzkOkvcyyTsXFRsjgpigvLyR5NKn8G3QMYFAM5f Dj8x3qB9dW0GM2NDBT6CktPV7jOLjjCqE7DCLG5dMetmXZ2VhxA4ZmzAgRofb34e2I+7 Ga4R2jz2HwefMZ0HPPiN6mls4IVeZ910ZWaRmmSM1fWa6nVlpCRZEW3ArB8CUEQuq9iz gj18xUm00MTo7bGLcAkUkt9Uq+7MyEGWS1JsFP0W9L/d83z1Nxy3zLcRNVcDFAkPPILW 5prNNX6JDQ/HlnS38GwIuFN4L9D8r0fZ5ToThd2/DqWDxqEEf7ld9n1HKYtR2sAcPwz1 msGQ== X-Received: by 10.50.3.65 with SMTP id a1mr75387iga.0.1429979879006; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.73.230 with SMTP id o6ls914341igv.30.gmail; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.42.12.208 with SMTP id z16mr7009987icz.18.1429979878755; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vn0-x230.google.com (mail-vn0-x230.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z9si393743vdj.0.2015.04.25.09.37.58 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::230; Received: by vnbg7 with SMTP id g7so7096107vnb.11 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.229.162 with SMTP id sr2mr8900706vdc.58.1429979878576; Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Alexs-MacBook-Air-2.local (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net. [69.249.31.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id hq1sm11068229vdb.24.2015.04.25.09.37.57 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 12:37:56 -0400 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <87a8631e-1155-4a74-a1c4-47c79a5fe96f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bpfk] selma'o ZEhEI and PEG X-Mailer: Airmail Beta (301) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="553bc2e5_1598367_ccaf" X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --553bc2e5_1598367_ccaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I tried to do this (delete ZEI, add {zei} and {ze'ei} to SI, and move SI fr= om post_clause to pre_clause) but I was unable to complete the last step wi= thout introducing left recursion into the pre_clause rule. So it seems easi= er said than done. I am not an expert in these dark corners of the PEG, tho= ugh. Also, one more issue to add to the above list (I still like this idea, thou= gh): (4) Currently {zei} can quote any word on the right, so {coi zei co'o'o'oi}= parses. Not sure what this is useful for, but it's in the grammar. - mu'o mi'e durkavore On April 4, 2015 at 9:25:22 AM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas (jjllambias@gmail.com) = wrote: On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 5:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = wrote: 2015-04-03 23:59 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : Like any lujvo, it could be defined as anything, it could mean "x1 says 'hi= !' to x2", for example. In actual usage, most of the uses of "zei" are with= a brivla as the second word, so I don't think it would be a great loss to = restrict zei-compounds to only be brivla when the last element is a brivla. It'd be ideologically not lujvo but some kind of fu'ivla since the place st= ructure magically comes out of nothing. Is "kemke'e" ideologically not a lujvo, then? It doesn't matter whether we = call it a lujvo or not, "coi zei coi" is now a brivla and with the change i= t will stop being a brivla. It is obviously a compound too, so not calling = it a lujvo seems arbitrary. I'm not sure it's an essential property of lujv= o that its place structure has to come out of its components, even if it us= ually does.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ni'o as for your PEG modifications on zei/ze'ei I need time. I'm not sure i= f the goal of finishing PEG is close (then I'll try implementing them) or n= ot (and then I probably think of this tool=C2=A0instead). That woud be good, it looks a lot like this: http://pegjs.org/online but when I try to paste the camxes-exp.js.peg file in there the page freeze= s for me, maybe it's too large for it. As for ze'ei in SI, a few more issues we need to be aware of: (1) "si" is allowed at the beginning of text, "zei" is not. Maybe we could = just disallow "si" there since it doesn't mean anything. (2) a text can end with "word si". Do we want to allow a text to end with "= word ze'ei" as well? This could be solved by either requiring "fa'o", or re= storing an elidable "fa'o" there. (3) multiple "si" work back to multiple words: "da de di si si si do" leave= s just "do" standing. Do we want "da de di ze'ei ze'ei ze'ei do" to be just= one sumti as well? This would be a change from how "zei" works now. (Not n= ecessarily a bad change.) mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --553bc2e5_1598367_ccaf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =
I tried to do this (delete ZEI, add {zei} and {ze'= ei} to SI, and move SI from post_clause to pre_clause) but I was unable to = complete the last step without introducing left recursion into the pre_clau= se rule. So it seems easier said than done. I am not an expert in these dar= k corners of the PEG, though.

Also, one more issue to add to the above list (I sti= ll like this idea, though):
(4) Currently {zei} can quote any word on the right, = so {coi zei co'o'o'oi} parses. Not sure what this is useful for, but it's i= n the grammar.

- mu'o mi'e durkavore

On April 4, 2015 at 9:25:22 AM, Jorge Llam= b=C3=ADas (jjllambias@gmail.com= ) wrote:

<= /div>
On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 5:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
2015-04-03 23:59 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

Like any lujvo, it could be defined as anything, it could mean "x1 says 'hi!' to x2", for example. In actual usage, most of the uses of "zei" are with a brivla as the second word, so I don't think it would be a great loss to restrict zei-compounds to only be brivla when the last element is a brivla.

It'd be ideologically not lujvo but some kind of fu'ivla since the place structure magically comes out of nothing.

Is "kemke'e" ideologically not a lujvo, then? It doesn't matter whether we call it a lujvo or not, "coi zei coi" is now a brivla and with the change it will stop being a brivla. It is obviously a compound too, so not calling it a lujvo seems arbitrary. I'm not sure it's an essential property of lujvo that its place structure has to come out of its components, even if it usually does. 
 
ni'o as for your PEG modifications on zei/ze'ei I need time. I'm not sure if the goal of finishing PEG is close (then I'll try implementing them) or not (and then I probably think of this tool instead).

That woud be good, it looks a lot like this: http://pegjs.org/online
but when I try to paste the camxes-exp.js.peg file in there the page freezes for me, maybe it's too large for it.

As for ze'ei in SI, a few more issues we need to be aware of:

(1) "si" is allowed at the beginning of text, "zei" is not. Maybe we could just disallow "si" there since it doesn't mean anything.

(2) a text can end with "word si". Do we want to allow a text to end with "word ze'ei" as well? This could be solved by either requiring "fa'o", or restoring an elidable "fa'o" there.

(3) multiple "si" work back to multiple words: "da de di si si si do" leaves just "do" standing. Do we want "da de di ze'ei ze'ei ze'ei do" to be just one sumti as well? This would be a change from how "zei" works now. (Not necessarily a bad change.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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