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[2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u1si29727qck.0.2015.05.27.13.52.17 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232; Received: by mail-qc0-x232.google.com with SMTP id i9so9419205qcm.0 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.55.42.130 with SMTP id q2mr67211979qkq.20.1432759937808; Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seas760.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu ([2607:f470:6:400d:808c:a89f:78a5:54db]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f91sm57572qgd.45.2015.05.27.13.52.16 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 16:52:16 -0400 From: Alex Burka To: Ilmen , bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <55662400.6030807@gmail.com> References: <55647BCD.8060008@gmail.com> <55661E01.8030707@gmail.com> <55662400.6030807@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: Lojban word definitions style guidelines X-Mailer: Airmail Beta (308) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="55662e80_68dc56c9_8eb0" X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --55662e80_68dc56c9_8eb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Makes sense to me. Thanks for translating/sending. The BPFK does write cmav= o definitions, so the guidelines may be relevant. I am a huge fan of elimin= ating slashes from definitions wherever possible -- the slashes create ambi= guities when reading. It's like a universal connective system, except in En= glish, unlike Lojban, you can't tell unambiguously what the connective is s= upposed to be connecting. As for sumti slots in lujvo definitions, I favor the hybrid system (x1=3Dg1= =3Ds2 is a thing with ...). It's visually noisy, but it manages to (1) numb= er the places without obliging the reader to count and (2) show the "etymol= ogy" of each place, where that is relevant. I consider (1) more important -= - perhaps the notes are a better place to say which terjvo came from which = veljvo. I don't like using only the gismu_first_letter+N system because the= n the N doesn't correspond to the FA you need to use and you have to count = while reading the definition. I agree that example sentences should be linked to their natlang equivalent= s. I never understood why JVS doesn't do that. I know that part of the poin= t of an example is just to show the word in context, but the translation is= often necessary too. A workaround is to put something like {lu ... li'u xe= fanva zoi gy. ... .gy} as the example. - mu'o mi'e durkavore On May 27, 2015 at 4:07:40 PM, Ilmen (ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com) wrote: I don't know how much dictionary definition guidelines are relevant to the = BPFK, but for lack of a better alternative, I've sent Naours' proposal here= , to the BPFK list. Indeed, even if the BPFK were to publish official definition guidelines or = recommendations, this wouldn't magically change all the existing definition= s ; however this may be a good idea in order that future/newer definitions = have a nicer and more consistent style. Also, it would be nice to have official recommendations on how to represent= sumti slots in Lujvo definitions. As of now, the x+N system, the gismu_fir= st_letter+N system and a mix of both systems are currently in use, which ma= ke lujvo definitions' style inconsistent across the dictionary. As a side note, it's not yet possible to attach a natural language translat= ion to Lojban sentence examples in Jbovlaste, so there may also be technica= l hindrances to such a proposal. However it's still possible to put transla= ted examples directly into the notes field, although it's conceptually less= nice. mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o On 27/05/2015 21:41, Ilmen wrote: coi ro do A couple of weeks ago, Naours (aka Xelan) suggested to make an official set= of style guidelines for Lojban word definitions, in order to have definiti= ons that look better and have a consistent style across the dictionary. Those guidelines would also aim at reducing the use of slashes '/' in defin= itions, favoring the use of the gloss fields for listing natural language e= quivalent words or expressions. The rational for this is that slashes make = definitions more clunky and less pretty, and the result can be awkward in l= anguages with inflectional agreements. Below is Naours' proposal, translated from French and slightly modified/adj= usted by me (hopefully without misrepresenting the idea of its author). mu'o mi'e la .ilmen. =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88= =92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92= =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92 Propositions: * Most important points: =E2=86=92 Each definition must have a clear description. Slashes '/' should= be avoided as much as possible, as they hinder comprehension and make defi= nitions look awkward. =E2=86=92 Each definition must have a simple description: the description i= s written using simple terms, even if that leads to more verbosity. =E2=86=92 Each definition must have a description as generic as possible: o= nly one term per concept, as generic as possible for encompassing the other= appropriate terms. =E2=86=92 Every terms corresponding to the described concept are recorded i= n the gloss fields. =E2=86=92 The etymologies are presented along with the definition in order = to retain the term and its origin. =E2=86=92 The various sumti types must be specified between parentheses: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Proposition (bridi abstractor - lo du'u) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Event (action or state; event abstractor - lo = nu) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Property/dimension (property abstractor - lo k= a) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Quantity (quantity abstractor - lo ni) * Points that may need to be further discussed: =E2=86=92 The sumti are described using singular definite articles. Expected results example: balni (gimsu) Description: x1 is a platform overhanging on facade x2 Gloss: {balcony, overhang, ledge, shelf} Exemple 1: =C2=A0 (English): This is a balcony =C2=A0 (Lojban): ti balni Exemple 2: =C2=A0 (English): The balcony of this building =C2=A0 (Lojban): lo balni be lo vi dinju Etymology: =C2=A0 Chinese: iantai =C2=A0 English: balkani =C2=A0 Hindi: baramda =C2=A0 Spanish: balkon =C2=A0 Russian: balkon =C2=A0 Arabic: curfa Notes: Some points are rather advanced, and it will maybe be necessary to modify/i= mprove/remove them. mu'o mi'e la .na'urs. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --55662e80_68dc56c9_8eb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =
Makes sense to me. Thanks for translating/sending.= The BPFK does write cmavo definitions, so the guidelines may be relevant. = I am a huge fan of eliminating slashes from definitions wherever possible -= - the slashes create ambiguities when reading. It's like a universal connec= tive system, except in English, unlike Lojban, you can't tell unambiguously= what the connective is supposed to be connecting.

As for sumti slots in lujvo def= initions, I favor the hybrid system (x1=3Dg1=3Ds2 is a thing with ...). It'= s visually noisy, but it manages to (1) number the places without obliging = the reader to count and (2) show the "etymology" of each place, where that = is relevant. I consider (1) more important -- perhaps the notes are a bette= r place to say which terjvo came from which veljvo. I don't like using only= the gismu_first_letter+N system because then the N doesn't correspond to t= he FA you need to use and you have to count while reading the definition.

I agree = that example sentences should be linked to their natlang equivalents. I nev= er understood why JVS doesn't do that. I know that part of the point of an = example is just to show the word in context, but the translation is often n= ecessary too. A workaround is to put something like {lu ... li'u xe fanva z= oi gy. ... .gy} as the example.

- mu'o mi'e durkavore

On May 27, 2015 at 4:07:40 PM, Ilmen (ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com) wrote:

I don't know how much dictionary definition guidelines are relevant to the BPFK, but for lack of a better alternative, I've sent Naours' proposal here, to the BPFK list.

Indeed, even if the BPFK were to publish official definition guidelines or recommendations, this wouldn't magically change all the existing definitions ; however this may be a good idea in order that future/newer definitions have a nicer and more consistent style.

Also, it would be nice to have official recommendations on how to represent sumti slots in Lujvo definitions. As of now, the x+N system, the gismu_first_letter+N system and a mix of both systems are currently in use, which make lujvo definitions' style inconsistent across the dictionary.

As a side note, it's not yet possible to attach a natural language translation to Lojban sentence examples in Jbovlaste, so there may also be technical hindrances to such a proposal. However it's still possible to put translated examples directly into the notes field, although it's conceptually less nice.

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


On 27/05/2015 21:41, Ilmen wrote:
coi ro do

A couple of weeks ago, Naours (aka Xelan) suggested to make an official set of style guidelines for Lojban word definitions, in order to have definitions that look better and have a consistent style across the dictionary.

Those guidelines would also aim at reducing the use of slashes '/' in definitions, favoring the use of the gloss fields for listing natural language equivalent words or expressions. The rational for this is that slashes make definitions more clunky and less pretty, and the result can be awkward in languages with inflectional agreements.

Below is Naours' proposal, translated from French and slightly modified/adjusted by me (hopefully without misrepresenting the idea of its author).

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.

=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88= =92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92= =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92

Propositions:

* Most important points:
=E2=86=92 Each definition must have a clear description. Slashes '/' should be avoided as much as possible, as they hinder comprehension and make definitions look awkward.
=E2=86=92 Each definition must have a simple description: the description is written using simple terms, even if that leads to more verbosity.
=E2=86=92 Each definition must have a description as generic as possible: only one term per concept, as generic as possible for encompassing the other appropriate terms.
=E2=86=92 Every terms corresponding to the described concept are recorded in the gloss fields.
=E2=86=92 The etymologies are presented along with the definition in order to retain the term and its origin.
=E2=86=92 The various sumti types must be specified between parentheses:
    =E2=80=94 Proposition (bridi abstractor - lo du'u)
    =E2=80=94 Event (action or state; event abstractor - lo nu)
    =E2=80=94 Property/dimension (property abstractor - lo ka)
    =E2=80=94 Quantity (quantity abstractor - lo ni)

* Points that may need to be further discussed:
=E2=86=92 The sumti are described using singular definite articles.

Expected results example:

balni (gimsu)
Description: x1 is a platform overhanging on facade x2
Gloss: {balcony, overhang, ledge, shelf}
Exemple 1:
  (English): This is a balcony
  (Lojban): ti balni
Exemple 2:
  (English): The balcony of this building
  (Lojban): lo balni be lo vi dinju
Etymology:
  Chinese: iantai
  English: balkani
  Hindi: baramda
  Spanish: balkon
  Russian: balkon
  Arabic: curfa
Notes:

Some points are rather advanced, and it will maybe be necessary to modify/improve/remove them.

mu'o mi'e la .na'urs.




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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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