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[2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u1si66276qck.0.2015.05.27.15.33.00 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c; Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id o18so14732388qko.1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2015 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.229.30.8 with SMTP id s8mr42981442qcc.31.1432765980666; Wed, 27 May 2015 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Alexs-MacBook-Air-2.local (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net. [69.249.31.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h133sm180315qhc.46.2015.05.27.15.32.59 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 27 May 2015 15:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 18:32:58 -0400 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <55663BFF.3020909@gmx.de> References: <55647BCD.8060008@gmail.com> <55661E01.8030707@gmail.com> <55662400.6030807@gmail.com> <55663BFF.3020909@gmx.de> Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: Lojban word definitions style guidelines X-Mailer: Airmail Beta (308) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5566461a_63dd64ea_8eb0" X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --5566461a_63dd64ea_8eb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On May 27, 2015 at 5:49:52 PM, selpa'i (seladwa@gmx.de) wrote: la durka cu cusku di'e=C2=A0 > As for sumti slots in lujvo definitions, I favor the hybrid system=C2=A0 > (x1=3Dg1=3Ds2 is a thing with ...). It's visually noisy, but it manages t= o=C2=A0 > (1) number the places without obliging the reader to count and (2) show= =C2=A0 > the "etymology" of each place, where that is relevant. I consider (1)=C2= =A0 > more important -- perhaps the notes are a better place to say which=C2=A0 > terjvo came from which veljvo.=C2=A0 I would think so. I prefer the simplest method: just x_n. Not everyone=C2= =A0 cares about the origin of the lujvo places, and all those letters=C2=A0 clutter up the definition and make it look more like math than anything.=C2= =A0 Fair enough. Sometimes it's easier to grok a lujvo definition when you can = think, "oh, okay, this place is like bangu2 so it's an agent" but arguably = this should be clear from the definition without looking into the etymology= . And with naljvajvo it doesn't make sense. I do think that lujvo in jvajvo= style, or close to it, should list their derivations somewhere. What I thought could work is to have an extra field apart from the=C2=A0 general notes field that can be used to give information about place=C2=A0 structure patterns ("families") and other place structure background.=C2=A0 Maybe a good dictionary frontend would allow the user to choose if they=C2= =A0 want this field to be visible (like a show/hide button). Much like=C2=A0 etymology, it's not necessary to know about it, but it can be of value=C2= =A0 to the interested.=C2=A0 +1 I do think the definitions should be as easy to read as possible, and=C2=A0 readable by a layperson.=C2=A0 I talked to some people a while ago, and they told me the definition=C2=A0 style scared them off, because it reminded them of math. It wouldn't=C2=A0 hurt Lojban to cater to a wider audience (as crazy as that may sound!)=C2= =A0 by making sure that any person with any background can access it. When=C2= =A0 giving lessons to non-math/non-programming people I sometimes use=C2=A0 unnumbered blanks written by underscores, because the concept of filling=C2= =A0 in the blanks is easy to grasp and less intimidating than "filling=C2=A0 argument places" for certain people. It looks like this:=C2=A0 dunda: ___ gives ___ to ___=C2=A0 I'm not saying this should replace the x1,x2,x3 style, but I think it is=C2= =A0 a good alternative that could be implemented in some potential=C2=A0 dictionary interface as an additional option. Everyone should be able to=C2= =A0 feel comfortable reading the dictionary.=C2=A0 Definitely a good dictionary viewer could have an option to hide the xN and= show blanks instead. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o=C2=A0 --=C2=A0 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group.=C2=A0 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.=C2=A0 To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.=C2=A0 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.=C2=A0 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.=C2=A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --5566461a_63dd64ea_8eb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =



On May 27, 2015 at 5:49:52 PM, selpa'i (seladwa@gmx.de) wrote:

la durka cu cusku di'= e 
> As for sumti s= lots in lujvo definitions, I favor the hybrid system 
> (x1=3Dg1=3Ds2 is a thing with ...). It= 's visually noisy, but it manages to&= nbsp;
> (1) number the places without obliging the reader to c= ount and (2) show 
>= ; the "etymology" of each place, where that is relevant. I consider (1) 
> more important -- p= erhaps the notes are a better place to say which 
> terjvo came from which veljvo. 

I would think so. I prefer = the simplest method: just x_n. Not everyone 
cares about the origin of the lujvo places, and all = those letters 
clutter= up the definition and make it look more like math than anything. 

Fair enough. Sometimes it's easier to grok a lujvo definition when y= ou can think, "oh, okay, this place is like bangu2 so it's an agent" but ar= guably this should be clear from the definition without looking into the et= ymology. And with naljvajvo it doesn't make sense. I do think that lujvo in= jvajvo style, or close to it, should list their derivations somewhere.

=


What I thought could work is to have an extra field apart fro= m the 
general notes f= ield that can be used to give information about place 
structure patterns ("families") and other = place structure background. 
Maybe a good dictionary frontend would allow the user to choose if t= hey 
want this field t= o be visible (like a show/hide button). Much like 
etymology, it's not necessary to know about it= , but it can be of value =
to the interested. 

+1



I do think the d= efinitions should be as easy to read as possible, and 
readable by a layperson. 

I talked to some people a while ag= o, and they told me the definition&nb= sp;
style scared them off, because it reminded them of math. It w= ouldn't 
hurt Lojban t= o cater to a wider audience (as crazy as that may sound!) 
by making sure that any person with an= y background can access it. When = ;
giving lessons to non-math/non-programming people I sometimes u= se 
unnumbered blanks = written by underscores, because the concept of filling 
in the blanks is easy to grasp and less i= ntimidating than "filling 
argument places" for certain people. It looks like this: 

dunda: ___ gives ___ to ___ 

I'm not saying this= should replace the x1,x2,x3 style, but I think it is 
a good alternative that could be implement= ed in some potential 
= dictionary interface as an additional option. Everyone should be able to 
feel comfortable readin= g the dictionary. 
<= /div>

Definitely a good dictionary viewer could= have an option to hide the xN and show blanks instead.



mi'e la= selpa'i mu'o 

--<= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> 
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To= post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. 
Visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/bpfk-list. <= /span>
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
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Visit this group at ht= tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
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