From bpfk-list+bncCMHEmaCOBhDZ4LvkBBoETxxrXQ@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 13 20:47:55 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OvMUo-00007l-4l; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:55 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf1201676wwe.16 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6tbCn6Qt4Mx/6PVOIqZDcXFZuyLcCHvb7Ks6aPMBw1Q=; b=cymCFxbgfHJaxK3zzOtjx0U/1zqRgGmO6fm8pijVEQP8/f8fliDKfapdIo1NQGvmo3 7t0KdNepAxapHIBWaSnI/BUHV/hVDrpdrxxca/cuVAewTWameKjDuzAbR5rHrLbKsiUN XBMXRbDK0nucewjsFbLwY+ijvbxWI1LO9eOnE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=nc43FukjBvtB14h39Ok8PDSIeP0zg2djRYY7UVdfn2d+9FAK98b9R8H+OzQfS0Hosr rBB2ByKyvoX8D2dXfG7izar+tJWWN/Suc/TjVWE2v7Q3tP386NWcE6v4LPOOYawCx6k4 Z/isyB75cdwpe7hBFsNsvrZV3HMSyEv7/DgoE= Received: by 10.216.145.214 with SMTP id p64mr704745wej.27.1284436057869; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls3902083wbe.2.p; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.136.8 with SMTP id p8mr271347wbt.28.1284436056762; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.136.8 with SMTP id p8mr271346wbt.28.1284436056724; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f46.google.com (mail-ww0-f46.google.com [74.125.82.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ey20si2616205wbb.2.2010.09.13.20.47.35; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.46; Received: by mail-ww0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 15so28137wwe.27 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.20.18 with SMTP id o18mr5175759weo.31.1284436051668; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.22.199 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:47:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:47:31 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] The Case for UI. From: Jonathan Jones To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f6dacc98b3ff0490301292 --001485f6dacc98b3ff0490301292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why not just reassign the selma'o so that all indicators are in UI1 and evidentials in UI2? On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Lindar wrote: > The Case for UI. > (or ".AI KARAMBA") > > I am wholly unsure of how to write an actual proposal, so here is my > best attempt. > > According to CLL Chapter 13 Section 3 examples 3.8 through 3.12 (and > pretty much the whole chapter) a large number of UI1 do not actually > work as emotional indicators, but as evidentials like in UI2. Rather > than {.oi} expressing annoyance at a particular thing, it states that > it works more like "Complaint: ", which to me seems more like > something out of UI2. Similarly, {.ai} seems to be "Intent: " rather > than expressing a feeling of intent, {.e'u} is "Suggestion: " instead > of feeling suggestive, and {.e'o} is "Request: " instead of a feeling > of petition. > > There is a rather big inconsistency in this regard as some UI1 > function this way, whereas some others such as {.ui}, {.iu}, and {.io} > actually express pure emotion. As I understand it, this has been a > very long debate, especially with regard to {.ai} (hence the alternate > title). I hope to bring this to an end. > > We -cannot- meet half way on this, because the split consistency of > UI1 is the biggest problem I have (otherwise I'd just create new > experimental cmavo that have the meanings I want and there'd be no > problem). > > I propose to change this to one of two things: > > Option 1: Make all UI1 function the same by making them all evidential- > like such that they work like {.e'u} as described in CLL; create a new > set of cmavo based on UI1 with similar meanings, but indicating pure > emotion. The best way I can really gloss these is seems reminiscent of > the robot from Star Wars: KotOR. I'll throw in a few nicer glosses > where I can think of them, though.. Suggested table and definitions > follows: > > a'a - "Statement of Attention:" (Attentively...) > a'e - "Alert:" > ai - "Intent: " (I intend...) > a'i - "Difficulty: " > a'o - "Hope: " (I hope that...) > au - "Desire: " (I desire...) > a'u - "Interest: " > e'a - "Permission: " > e'e - "Competence: " (Competantly...) > ei - "Obligation: " I should... > e'i - "Restriction: " > e'o - "Request: " (I request...) > e'u - "Suggestion: " (I suggest...) > i'a - "Acceptive Statement: " (I accept...) > ia - "Belief: " (I believe...) > i'e - "Approval: " (I approve of...) > ie - "Agreement: " (I agree that/with...) > i'i - "Collective Statement: " (Together...) > ii - "Fear: " (I fear...) > i'o - "Appreciative Statement: " (I appreciate...) > io - "Respective Statement: " > i'u - "Familiarity: " or "Deja Vu: " (Familiarly...) > iu - "Expression of Love: " > o'a - "Expression of Pride: " (I'm proud that...) > o'e - "Expression of Closeness: " > o'i - "Caution: " > oi - "Complaint: " > o'o - "Expression of Patience: " > o'u - "Expression of Calm: " > u'a - "Gain: " > ua - "Discovery: " > u'e - "Awe: " > ue - "Surprise: " > u'i - "Amusement: " > ui - "Expression of Joy: " > u'o - "Boldness: " > uo - "Completion: " > u'u - "Repentance: " > uu - "Pity: " > > Perhaps these aren't the -best- examples, but it outlines the general > idea behind how they should be defined. The next part is to create a > separate table of matching words which do not in any way change the > meaning of the bridi and only express the emotion of the speaker. Ca'a > or Va'a perhaps? .ia'a .ia'e, etc. > > Option 2: Make all UI1 express only emotion. Take the specific UI that > do change the meaning of the bridi and move them to a new space in UI2 > with cmavo that correspond to their counterparts (via previously > mentioned method) as perhaps not all UI1 need an irrealis counterpart > as in option 1. > > The cmavo in particular I would move are: > > a'o - ia'o (hopefully vs. I hope that...) > au - i'au (desirably vs. I desire...) > e'a - ie'a (*permissiveness* vs. I permit...) > ei - i'ei ( *obligation-ness* vs. I should...) > e'o - ie'o ( *requestive-ness* vs. I request...) > e'u - ie'u ( *suggestiveness* vs. I suggest...) > ia - i'ia ( *belief* vs. I believe...) > o'i - io'i ( *cautious* vs. Caution: ) > oi - i'oi ( *annoyance* vs. Complaint: ) > ua - i'ua ( *yooreeka!* vs. Discovery: ) > u'u - iu'u ( *repenting* vs. Repenting Statement: ) > uu - i'uu ( *pity* vs. Condolence: ) > > I'm sure there's some better conversion method than what I've done > here (tacking "I" on everything), but that's not exactly the most > important part of the proposal, so I'll leave that up to the BPFK. > > Option 3: Shut up, Lindar; nobody cares. You have a stupid haircut and > nobody likes you. > > Certainly a viable option. > > I would like a discussion to take place to decide which option is > better (or perhaps to suggest a better option?) and to figure out what > sort of pattern should be used to generate the new UI required for the > first two options. > > Thank you very much, and as I've said before, I apologise for beating > the dead zombie horse. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=en. --001485f6dacc98b3ff0490301292 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why not just reassign the selma'o so that al= l indicators are in UI1 and evidentials in UI2?

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010= at 9:39 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Case for UI.<= br> (or ".AI KARAMBA")

I am wholly unsure of how to write an actual proposal, so here is my
best attempt.

According to CLL Chapter 13 Section 3 examples 3.8 through 3.12 (and
pretty much the whole chapter) a large number of UI1 do not actually
work as emotional indicators, but as evidentials like in UI2. Rather
than {.oi} expressing annoyance at a particular thing, it states that
it works more like "Complaint: ", which to me seems more like
something out of UI2. Similarly, {.ai} seems to be "Intent: " rat= her
than expressing a feeling of intent, {.e'u} is "Suggestion: "= instead
of feeling suggestive, and {.e'o} is "Request: " instead of a= feeling
of petition.

There is a rather big inconsistency in this regard as some UI1
function this way, whereas some others such as {.ui}, {.iu}, and {.io}
actually express pure emotion. As I understand it, this has been a
very long debate, especially with regard to {.ai} (hence the alternate
title). I hope to bring this to an end.

We -cannot- meet half way on this, because the split consistency of
UI1 is the biggest problem I have (otherwise I'd just create new
experimental cmavo that have the meanings I want and there'd be no
problem).

I propose to change this to one of two things:

Option 1: Make all UI1 function the same by making them all evidential-
like such that they work like {.e'u} as described in CLL; create a new<= br> set of cmavo based on UI1 with similar meanings, but indicating pure
emotion. The best way I can really gloss these is seems reminiscent of
the robot from Star Wars: KotOR. I'll throw in a few nicer glosses
where I can think of them, though.. Suggested table and definitions
follows:

a'a - "Statement of Attention:" (Attentively...)
a'e - "Alert:"
ai - "Intent: " (I intend...)
a'i - "Difficulty: "
a'o - "Hope: " (I hope that...)
au - "Desire: " (I desire...)
a'u - "Interest: "
e'a - "Permission: "
e'e - "Competence: " (Competantly...)
ei - "Obligation: " I should...
e'i - "Restriction: "
e'o - "Request: " (I request...)
e'u - "Suggestion: " (I suggest...)
i'a - "Acceptive Statement: " (I accept...)
ia - "Belief: " (I believe...)
i'e - "Approval: " (I approve of...)
ie - "Agreement: " (I agree that/with...)
i'i - "Collective Statement: " (Together...)
ii - "Fear: " (I fear...)
i'o - "Appreciative Statement: " (I appreciate...)
io - "Respective Statement: "
i'u - "Familiarity: " or "Deja Vu: " (Familiarly...= )
iu - "Expression of Love: "
o'a - "Expression of Pride: " (I'm proud that...)
o'e - "Expression of Closeness: "
o'i - "Caution: "
oi - "Complaint: "
o'o - "Expression of Patience: "
o'u - "Expression of Calm: "
u'a - "Gain: "
ua - "Discovery: "
u'e - "Awe: "
ue - "Surprise: "
u'i - "Amusement: "
ui - "Expression of Joy: "
u'o - "Boldness: "
uo - "Completion: "
u'u - "Repentance: "
uu - "Pity: "

Perhaps these aren't the -best- examples, but it outlines the general idea behind how they should be defined. The next part is to create a
separate table of matching words which do not in any way change the
meaning of the bridi and only express the emotion of the speaker. Ca'a<= br> or Va'a perhaps? .ia'a .ia'e, etc.

Option 2: Make all UI1 express only emotion. Take the specific UI that
do change the meaning of the bridi and move them to a new space in UI2
with cmavo that correspond to their counterparts (via previously
mentioned method) as perhaps not all UI1 need an irrealis counterpart
as in option 1.

The cmavo in particular I would move are:

a'o - ia'o (hopefully vs. I hope that...)
au - i'au (desirably vs. I desire...)
e'a - ie'a (*permissiveness* vs. I permit...)
ei - i'ei ( *obligation-ness* vs. I should...)
e'o - ie'o ( *requestive-ness* vs. I request...)
e'u - ie'u ( *suggestiveness* vs. I suggest...)
ia - i'ia ( *belief* vs. I believe...)
o'i - io'i ( *cautious* vs. Caution: )
oi - i'oi ( *annoyance* vs. Complaint: )
ua - i'ua ( *yooreeka!* vs. Discovery: )
u'u - iu'u ( *repenting* vs. Repenting Statement: )
uu - i'uu ( *pity* vs. Condolence: )

I'm sure there's some better conversion method than what I've d= one
here (tacking "I" on everything), but that's not exactly the = most
important part of the proposal, so I'll leave that up to the BPFK.

Option 3: Shut up, Lindar; nobody cares. You have a stupid haircut and
nobody likes you.

Certainly a viable option.

I would like a discussion to take place to decide which option is
better (or perhaps to suggest a better option?) and to figure out what
sort of pattern should be used to generate the new UI required for the
first two options.

Thank you very much, and as I've said before, I apologise for beating the dead zombie horse.

--
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To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<= br> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bp= fk-list?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
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