From bpfk-list+bncCN673cmqFBC_weLlBBoEAS5RWA@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 15 11:43:30 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6pFT-0001tu-De; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:29 -0700 Received: by ywo7 with SMTP id 7sf574201ywo.16 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7fVbVMGIPz/eeefJsT+SxwzZu04v2/SoXVp1hP55o30=; b=ND1P66XZpMawJw+lgzHX0q9DRSC9+sgAk28+snBeg8gVnf98iTXxJxNUR/PgMvBE7k GonMabJcylt0aPT+mXNjA64jgtl4SUEBypN5lBmu0Bc5O9DeCGPhPBprUBHEXknayLDR BrT3O+zKELeq2SRNbMGJCqYsVxtUUsNhw6t1E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=4mkJ6Rq2gEabJ8xSGtG+Ted32Jc9H0PhSD2Hyee2OpgOg/RUOhDdIJ4BbhlF9bMeL0 9un0FqVq/N+hjWYXnaL2ACmazw3/y76SUpUbFP+2+MGeYcRUSRboElDqeDbZcVkiWIk9 Yhw7LFYkYW5jaB6HHsoI3Ys8jY46jKbUaPEgI= Received: by 10.150.73.31 with SMTP id v31mr27658yba.8.1287168191465; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.102.24 with SMTP id z24ls1939804ybb.3.p; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.109.179 with SMTP id s39mr410470yhg.16.1287168190758; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.109.179 with SMTP id s39mr410469yhg.16.1287168190738; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net (eastrmmtao101.cox.net [68.230.240.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j3si383645yha.11.2010.10.15.11.43.10; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.7; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20101015184310.BGAN17186.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:43:10 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id K6j81f0073Xcbvq026j9Bz; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:43:09 -0400 X-VR-Score: -57.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Of5FRk7D4fcJlrWbzxPvWNsT1UhKEYt7m7ky24PLP4c= c=1 sm=1 a=MIM4xrNUA4cA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=4RBUngkUAAAA:8 a=GYjThpRuAAAA:20 a=tAG7zR830K1Wjph4NA4A:9 a=nPfDVCXYbJXq0D4LqUMA:7 a=yKev59OHcL8VQyocxxC8ARx76WgA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=75VujUvMpGYA:10 a=c4S9Whzb7AQA:10 a=QXcm860TS2MA:10 a=Bm6qEjDGwGEA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4CB8A0BB.9060309@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:43:07 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] BPFK work - getting it done. References: <20101014221058.GC15812@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.7 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jonathan Jones wrote: > From the cmavo list at > http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/cmavo_selmaho_order.txt: >=20 > baba - PU* - will be going to - time tense: will be going to; > (tense/modal) >=20 >=20 > Personally, I'm in agreement with you. But I'm working on describing the= =20 > unfinished cmavo entries in the BPFK sections, this is one of the=20 > entries, and that's it's official definition, stupid as it is. >=20 > I would like to at this time seek approval for removing the following=20 > entries from the BPFK Section: Tense=20 > = page: >=20 > {baba}=B9 > {bapu}=B9 > {puba}=B9 > {pupu}=B9 At the time these were added, they were the best Lojban equivalents of=20 certain aspects. We later added another set of cmavo that solved the=20 problem in a different way, but it was not clear that the two systems=20 were totally redundant. This was before the "Imaginary Journeys=20 paradigm" was invented. > {baca'a}=B2 > {caca'a}=B2 > {cajeba}=B2 > {puca'a}=B2 > {pujeba}=B2 > {pujeca}=B2 > {puza}=B2 > {puze'a}=B2 > {puze'i}=B2 > {puze'u}=B2 > {puzi}=B2 > {puzu}=B2 These and many other compounds were added to the cmavo list to show how=20 cmavo could be used in combination within the grammar, and incidentally=20 to provide Lojban equivalents for certain English usages and expressions. There was no CLL at the time, and most Lojbanists did not learn or=20 understand the grammar from the YACC or EBNF formats, but from these=20 sorts of compounds being present in the cmavo list, with translations. > =B9 Official meaning differs from usage. If these differ, it should be relatively easy to demonstrate this, and=20 show what they SHOULD mean. Eliminating them is a change (to the cmavo=20 list which is a baseline document), and needs to be justified. I suspect that I will agree with you that either they shouldn't be kept,=20 or that their meaning needs to be changed/clarified. >as well as being non-intuitive One would want any non-intuitive compounds to be explicitly documented. > =B2 Meaning is obvious given meaning of components and therefore does not= =20 > need it's own entry. Possible true for someone with a thorough understanding of the=20 components and how they work together. But such understanding isn't=20 something that should be presumed of the typical user of the books and=20 wordlists. Lots of examples are good! Equally important, again, is that there is an English-to-Lojban=20 direction for a dictionary or word list, and not just a=20 Lojban-to-English direction. (Replace English by any other language as=20 desired.) That we usually look at wordlists in Lojban-to-English order=20 doesn't reflect that they were designed for use in both directions. (Given the difference in the various natural languages, different=20 natural languages would probably warrant different compounds being shown=20 in their respective bilingual lists.) In my own half-completed definition of "pu" I was planning on including=20 those (pu) compounds that had indeed seen usage in the corpus (some of=20 which are not in the cmavo list), and then arguing for elimination of=20 the rest as not necessary for pedagogical or usage reasons. lojbab >=20 > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >=20 > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi=20 > patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "BPFK" group. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 > bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at=20 > http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.