From bpfk-list+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCR7-LlBBoEh7NNig@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 15 13:20:49 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6qli-0000qY-JE; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:49 -0700 Received: by wyb39 with SMTP id 39sf625059wyb.16 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YeNluZaFkMW8fTEMLUZ3Q1c5L8su5TWfqc/i2oi7Sss=; b=0q7NbZuo2bKaQms/v+0v0tmoFyOO++JLcC91P7NF2PEts0y2KwJ0idAoNT+wvCmwnW h7Ej0Jl37hGuhfnLL7Uvot/4qWP8duERZ2+dpjqRoDUa2KBQiNh3qEju6oqj2zi7XNyc R9dVjTCWUDvyxFUkZeI8YFnQtTGZhehwbpcYQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vyIAalgA/uUepJPr6sBZBDzAVGSVYqs7YKo0kIXUB+LABNBxMTLkHsYZDHNxiRoGAw pG9if7BxiyLMF01KAUunDnPd2BPE4kex0a7/wl1CoWl9mJJEIZ1oc6DCkkuRh3w0G70Q E7fkrAkeDPh+8AEmndFFiATh5yccpztouU8To= Received: by 10.216.242.7 with SMTP id h7mr82989wer.6.1287174033942; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.3.19 with SMTP id 19ls1394324wbl.3.p; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.141.129 with SMTP id m1mr70142wbu.3.1287174033179; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.141.129 with SMTP id m1mr70141wbu.3.1287174033155; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ep20si1538675wbb.3.2010.10.15.13.20.32; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by mail-ww0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 40so1518282wwj.1 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.138.134 with SMTP id a6mr1535960wbu.68.1287174031911; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:20:31 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:53 PM, John Cowan wrote: > 2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > >> What is strange is when a question is embedded in a subordinate bridi. >> I'm pretty sure Lojban must violate some language universal there, but >> I don't really know enough about it to be sure, it's just a feeling. > > Not at all. =A0English (unlike Chinese, Turkish, and Lojban) fronts its > question words, and can do so from arbitrarily deep in the > clause-tree: > > Who was it you said John saw (t) walking with Mary? > Who was it you said George heard John saw (t) walking with Mary? > ... > > where "(t)" marks the "trace", the point from which the question-word > was fronted. Right, fronting is basically yanking it out of the subordinate clause. Just as with quantifiers. > Or, in the mood of disbelief (which is in the Chinese or Lojban style > for normal questions): > > You said John saw WHO walking with Mary??! > You said George heard John saw WHO walking with Mary??! > ... OK. I think my issue in the case of Lojban is that quantifiers need to be fronted for them to have scope over the matrix, whereas questions have matrix scope without being fronted. I find it somewhat dissonant. >> So what you are saying is that you support the second "jei": >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 jei ... =3D se jetlai lo du'u ... >> >> Do I understand you correctly? That one cannot be used as the x2 of djun= o. > > That sounds right to me. OK. That's how I have defined it in jbovlaste. I don't really think that meaning particularly deserves a cmavo, but I don't need "jei" for anything else, so I don't care. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.