From bpfk-list+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCdwuPlBBoEUkrq3Q@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 15 16:18:05 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6tXF-0003aK-Bt; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:18:05 -0700 Received: by wyb39 with SMTP id 39sf714774wyb.16 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZvQrwJ88aK9PVOtHHS29q02lzO1s8Fp7gfz50/J5tOE=; b=4ptzwaiOQdiTtuo6tkMaUD1cNlc1reV7riV7mutoBFBmzFVzyZnPL4rtn99pjLnYMe GXYsu7uYlsFOxs+/6/tesbql0OmQW5G13eGUU/vBekaEtKpLXhAX9g6z63hTM+QrXVCE P5hUGmBL9OQztl0w/1F+Wp18+b2WrGT1kq4Wo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=a4QdFgq7HM306spomkjzZDemOittN2QnpXBI+SSIp3MirifaQ5CFFTZYaCtp9zSOk4 4c+9LtoNprv9ICyX+S0ZVDMwcgEc325Pcq/U9r75KljpNQfOSWFu9X+y3SO0MUxqckYX c7yvPRHmQ9OnUdwLG/rMo2wNpSJbdMyYsY+5s= Received: by 10.216.237.35 with SMTP id x35mr103055weq.5.1287184669018; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls24876weo.2.p; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.78.131 with SMTP id g3mr122566wee.6.1287184668236; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.78.131 with SMTP id g3mr122565wee.6.1287184668218; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si2869573wej.2.2010.10.15.16.17.47; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so1527460wyb.18 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:17:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.145.146 with SMTP id d18mr1574000wbv.172.1287182873127; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:47:53 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 7:09 PM, John Cowan wrote: > > Quantifiers are just arguments, whereas questions are jufra-level > modifiers that change the overall illocutionary force. =A0They shouldn't > be compared. Quantifiers are not arguments! They are bridi level operators too. Quantifiers quantify bridi, they say how many times a bridi is true. The fact that syntactically they are part of a sumti is a Lojban oddity (in predicate logic notation they don't do that). But then "ma" and "ko" are also syntactic arguments even though as you say they have an effect on the whole bridi. That's why I think "ko" should have been something like "do .e'i" and "ma" should have been "ma pau", with "ma" as a mere place holder. (That's actually the story I have come up with for myself: In proto-Lojban, you always had to use "pau" to indicate a question, and what we now call question words were just place holders, but then the lazy lojbanists started leaving the "pau"s implicit, and leaving it up to the listener to guess that they are being asked to fill the empty slot. "ma pau" and "ma kau", and the same for all other questions, were part of a wider system of which the "kau"s are the only remnants.) >> OK. That's how I have defined it in jbovlaste. I don't really think >> that meaning particularly deserves a cmavo, but I don't need "jei" for >> anything else, so I don't care. > > Well, what gets a NU is like what gets a BAI or a UI: fairly > arbitrary. =A0\gua-spi has a very parsimonious ontology in which only > sedu'u exists, but there are problems: "having a heart" and "having a > kidney" are different ka's, but everything that has a heart in fact > has kidneys, so \gua-spi can't distinguish. But presumably for other reasons than only having "se du'u", since "lo se du'u da se risna" and "lo se du'u da se debrango" are different, so why couldn't you say "ro da go lo se du'u da se risna cu jetnu se cusku gi lo se du'u da se debrango cu jetnu se cusku", or something like that? You don't need "ka" to say that two different things are always true or false together of anything. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. 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