From bpfk-list+bncCMHEmaCOBhDlqeTlBBoELEnwzA@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 15 19:59:01 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f57.google.com ([74.125.83.57]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6wz3-0007TS-HU; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:59:00 -0700 Received: by gwj15 with SMTP id 15sf1532752gwj.2 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tNjPpWZ00TDnEJjUB8pnjwK5Ei6RfLjJjk3s86h7s2Y=; b=WwmI/uASL6YLCHsKQVnv4eiOKYLFQDDuPqzbzZuB7eQoz8ayzoCv51FeQxrEakkZE8 CBWzgezdBQ+7UNs9hSwM2r0PZi9qt784Oh8K9MsCljygWgWXGkFwawderusJoWZhTCmU 00QM48AZHtbg/aT4l0GmIz88F9z5NsxEG7Q/k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=dAQOuD0qmC7JKP/8i68Jotma6YFbVYPgHjrxO9LqUWvMeL+zwSv1+KUhSfgfglvxuD 1rRjFeTPp/oNCk/dRkEMsYgTcsan7cvEtG3XlIDrfRW12VF0MFqdLcYhqGC4IWXZIEad XKWZ5K19oyWUiUyI7Fi4fES89AZlBZPeJ/3g0= Received: by 10.236.109.171 with SMTP id s31mr47799yhg.18.1287197925701; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.123.203 with SMTP id q11ls2770905ibr.2.p; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.140 with SMTP id t12mr821265ibd.4.1287197925268; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.140 with SMTP id t12mr821264ibd.4.1287197925201; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id bm7si8107266ibb.2.2010.10.15.19.58.44; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.172; Received: by mail-iw0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 10so1475941iwn.3 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.38.13 with SMTP id z13mr1341837ibd.169.1287197923788; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.68 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:58:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4CB90A9A.3050302@gmail.com> References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <4CB90A9A.3050302@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 20:58:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ From: Jonathan Jones To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555150a00c80f0492b31fc1 --00032555150a00c80f0492b31fc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:14 PM, And Rosta wrote: > John Cowan, On 15/10/2010 23:09: > > 2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas: >> >> OK. I think my issue in the case of Lojban is that quantifiers need to >>> be fronted for them to have scope over the matrix, whereas questions >>> have matrix scope without being fronted. I find it somewhat dissonant. >>> >> >> Quantifiers are just arguments, whereas questions are jufra-level >> modifiers that change the overall illocutionary force. They shouldn't >> be compared. >> > > In my (unpublished) analysis of English interrogatives (which owes a larg= e > debt to xorxes), subordinate interrogatives (aka indirect questions, e.g. > _wonder who_) involve a 'WH complementizer' (same word class as _that_) t= hat > binds a variable. In main clause interrogatives, the WH complementizer is > complement of an illocutionary operator that means "I-hereby-enquire". So > e.g. _Who came?_ is syntactically "I-hereby-enquire that(WH)_x it_x (x is= a > person) came". I recognize that this exposition is 99% incomprehensible, = but > the point is that there are logically three ingredients, the relationship > between two of them involves variable binding, so is very like quantifier= s, > and the illocutionary ingredient is not really the core ingredient (since= it > is present only in main clause interrogatives). > > How does Lojban distinguishthe following? > "I know who she knows that he likes"=3D "I know that(WH)x she knows that = he > likes x" > "I know that she knows who he likes"? =3D "I know that she knows that(WH)= x he > likes x" > -- these differ wrt the scope of the WH complementizer. > > --And. > Can someone put that in layman, please? That entire post is completely beyond me. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den. --00032555150a00c80f0492b31fc1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:14 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com= > wrote:
John Cowan, On 15/10/2010 23:09:

2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas<jjllambias@gmail.com>:

OK. I think my issue in the case of Lojban is that quantifiers need to
be fronted for them to have scope over the matrix, whereas questions
have matrix scope without being fronted. I find it somewhat dissonant.

Quantifiers are just arguments, whereas questions are jufra-level
modifiers that change the overall illocutionary force. =A0They shouldn'= t
be compared.

In my (unpublished) analysis of English interrogatives (which owes a large = debt to xorxes), subordinate interrogatives (aka indirect questions, e.g. _= wonder who_) involve a 'WH complementizer' (same word class as _tha= t_) that binds a variable. In main clause interrogatives, the WH complement= izer is complement of an illocutionary operator that means "I-hereby-e= nquire". So e.g. _Who came?_ is syntactically "I-hereby-enquire t= hat(WH)_x it_x (x is a person) came". I recognize that this exposition= is 99% incomprehensible, but the point is that there are logically three i= ngredients, the relationship between two of them involves variable binding,= so is very like quantifiers, and the illocutionary ingredient is not reall= y the core ingredient (since it is present only in main clause interrogativ= es).

How does Lojban distinguishthe following?
"I know who she knows that he likes"=3D "I know that(WH)x sh= e knows that he likes x"
"I know that she knows who he likes"? =3D "I know that she k= nows that(WH)x he likes x"
-- these differ wrt the scope of the WH complementizer.

--And.

Can someone put that = in layman, please? That entire post is completely beyond me.

--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe l= o pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.
--00032555150a00c80f0492b31fc1--