From bpfk-list+bncCNuStaWoDxCO9OXlBBoElBJYUA@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 16 03:10:39 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P73il-0000zW-1x; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:38 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf947126wwe.16 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dl9+oTt88X7Upd5C0RC5zJiOHLlkSWvISK0F7wQWaiY=; b=3Lmib/RllkTkgBxIuqjoOtsMtqtC/BjEbzL5BnC1NgTJw1VtkrJPSHOLTGxHT+UsHv Rz06lvxKg6sxobvBVZfGr1q3kIaSUUZQnRkZo2vkK8sWLNmYYXWkJVwwRNTgBlspRHYR 4bEF53NpOZ4WQIvD2RY/VfOD4XjMu1bt5ANKE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A/c30nKOAQIVURMw8n25tB5qWJS47wSGueKTRo6w3G7ZogtG66gS4EpRtbgWq4Lefq Sfxq+xc0FMAAZ4CkStbeMgP8a0Erz7ZsRrWX0ctkN3WWd7MlF72ro+f84kjtxMiVbtsB K/JNZehWPC2iXXu0GbX6U7bxl4ywm+V21Ujq4= Received: by 10.216.237.73 with SMTP id x51mr138593weq.19.1287223822073; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls156381weo.2.p; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.5 with SMTP id w5mr136886wed.5.1287223820844; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.5 with SMTP id w5mr136885wed.5.1287223820820; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f177.google.com (mail-wy0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v4si4212208weq.9.2010.10.16.03.10.19; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.177; Received: by mail-wy0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 11so1540320wyi.8 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.17.72 with SMTP id i50mr2729971wei.77.1287223818394; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e12sm1968413wer.12.2010.10.16.03.10.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 16 Oct 2010 03:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CB97A01.9040007@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:10:09 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <4CB90A9A.3050302@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jonathan Jones, On 16/10/2010 03:58: > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:14 PM, And Rosta > wrote: > > John Cowan, On 15/10/2010 23:09: > > 2010/10/15 Jorge Llamb=EDas>: > > OK. I think my issue in the case of Lojban is that quantifier= s need to > be fronted for them to have scope over the matrix, whereas qu= estions > have matrix scope without being fronted. I find it somewhat d= issonant. > > > Quantifiers are just arguments, whereas questions are jufra-level > modifiers that change the overall illocutionary force. They shou= ldn't > be compared. > > > In my (unpublished) analysis of English interrogatives (which owes a = large debt to xorxes), subordinate interrogatives (aka indirect questions, = e.g. _wonder who_) involve a 'WH complementizer' (same word class as _that_= ) that binds a variable. In main clause interrogatives, the WH complementiz= er is complement of an illocutionary operator that means "I-hereby-enquire"= . So e.g. _Who came?_ is syntactically "I-hereby-enquire that(WH)_x it_x (x= is a person) came". I recognize that this exposition is 99% incomprehensib= le, but the point is that there are logically three ingredients, the relati= onship between two of them involves variable binding, so is very like quant= ifiers, and the illocutionary ingredient is not really the core ingredient = (since it is present only in main clause interrogatives). > > How does Lojban distinguishthe following? > "I know who she knows that he likes"=3D "I know that(WH)x she knows t= hat he likes x" > "I know that she knows who he likes"? =3D "I know that she knows that= (WH)x he likes x" > -- these differ wrt the scope of the WH complementizer. > > --And. > > > Can someone put that in layman, please? That entire post is completely be= yond me. The underlying logic of Q+kau type interrogatives involves a du'u-type elem= ent that binds a variable within the du'u clause: "I know who she knows that he likes"=3D "I know that(WH)x she knows that he= likes x" "I know that she knows who he likes"? =3D "I know that she knows that(WH)x = he likes x" where "that(WH)x" is the du'u-type element that binds the variable x. Interrogatives that have the illocutionary force of actual questions -- i.e= . sentences that ask questions -- have an additional element expressing the= act of question asking. The question "Who came?" is underlyingly "I-hereby= -ask-you who came", or rather "I-hereby-ask-you that(WH)x x came". The relevance of these remarks to the present thread is firstly that I thin= k xorxes was right and John was wrong, and secondly that the pair of "knows= ...likes" sentences above demonstrate the need for Lojban to be able to ind= icate the scope of the interrogative. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.