From bpfk-list+bncCNuStaWoDxDii-flBBoE5JL_xg@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 16 08:34:14 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P78lr-0003dm-RT; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:34:13 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf1048563wwe.16 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:34:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Aya1VsaJPJlgYzlArVxczidCqJ+hWJNyqO0nlHLlmQI=; b=ig5sJNn4vh+23w8Z35bYTTEu8DeMOhpANA97RAULnLJl6xN5fUz0SnQmxoAjwNd8oe Ve4+lRB48aoOLHNzYMH65Cn7l7uxZ6l7//oO+cxgytq3RT0+mqop75QMHpjk/0T8Tbvz FHMppV+fDnMzbBJ03K6OahcEFF2Vd/Mdc6Vso= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Q0Pf1meWjk6cwACP6lSGNzTND9sGhMIxHPlA0oJgZ6Wnq8/N9JnqcvY2jH+DsF7bwz 5DZ91JzKxEQK6owZnIUPLdBD4yWwjfGVldrRTd4Jgwpgz3IBywi7rA2pu97opTtNOIui vKME4wP65/hsYwQKZJ3eq0uJznSvQpozIijjU= Received: by 10.216.17.208 with SMTP id j58mr314327wej.17.1287243234637; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls256115weo.2.p; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.239.7 with SMTP id b7mr151073wer.2.1287243233757; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.239.7 with SMTP id b7mr151072wer.2.1287243233709; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f48.google.com (mail-ww0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si3151085wej.2.2010.10.16.08.33.52; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by mail-ww0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 17so2488289wwb.29 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.91.16 with SMTP id g16mr2328917wef.78.1287243232490; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x59sm5732908weq.14.2010.10.16.08.33.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CB9C5DE.9030707@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:33:50 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <4CB90A9A.3050302@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 16/10/2010 14:10: > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 11:14 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> >> How does Lojban distinguishthe following? >> "I know who she knows that he likes"=3D "I know that(WH)x she knows that= he >> likes x" >> "I know that she knows who he likes"? =3D "I know that she knows that(WH= )x he >> likes x" >> -- these differ wrt the scope of the WH complementizer. > > I would say they are: > > mi djuno lo du'u ma kau goi ko'a zo'u ko'e djuno lo du'u ko'i nelci ko'= a > > mi djuno lo du'u ko'e djuno lo du'u ko'i nelci ma kau > > The second one being equivalent to expanded form: > > mi djuno lo du'u ko'e djuno lo du'u ma kau goi ko'a zo'u ko'i nelci ko'= a These are the obvious ways, indeed. They require two rules, one that says "= lo du'u Q kau zo'u" expresses -- probably idiomatically rather than composi= tionally -- an interrogativity "complementizer" (or whatever you want to ca= ll it), and another that says that an unprenexed Q-kau should be construed = as belonging to the innermost prenex. The latter rule is doubtless redundan= t to a more general rule that unprenexed stuff, such as quantifiers, belong= to the innermost prenex. And ideally an additional rule that translates "Q(+pau)" (i.e. kau-less Q-w= ords) into "illocution lo du'u Q kau zo'u", too. The satisfactoriness of "lo du'u Q kau zo'u" might depend on whether idioma= ticity is compatible with Lojban principles. If not compatible, then a new = construction is called for. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.