From bpfk-list+bncCNuStaWoDxCZ1OflBBoEk6I3Dw@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 16 11:08:44 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P7BBO-0008Ob-3o; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:44 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf1119147wwe.16 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=k9EYhR/ztBBztl9KY9Ap9KZRujmIhZwMNp4NgM6+3nU=; b=1ZPe/mVxUiO3Kicr6VjaiMpPPsKQnPYWH3wXCmJgW52pYJpSrvRscjL4wj5nZS9mfl w+81ggnm0e3UVW2iYmOiwaB/aQX/H8uCtzk/HN1QWW2fNHQ0ijZAlRXxYj9OvQPBVACb cNZjXSNrHBrKEstMm1AqowAFY7ECWvySeg7Gw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=wkaG8aDu+uvGi4RLDr6bxKDxA20YoIjQDBp6OH0Te4katP4dHBzfsjqRdMzz/NObU6 RXqOw+oGtFVNlMsCp2AzjWKHAy6sGpbisz3hhrBhwYAIzi451Xvdyc3nsq3i8JCd42+n seLU1zAd22HRkogq8HmxDx8uxwlbagr756Ro0= Received: by 10.216.231.154 with SMTP id l26mr185834weq.9.1287252505293; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.242.202 with SMTP id i52ls936299wer.0.p; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.48.68 with SMTP id u46mr171677web.12.1287252504392; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.48.68 with SMTP id u46mr171676web.12.1287252504374; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f52.google.com (mail-ww0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x26si3683853weq.8.2010.10.16.11.08.23; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.52; Received: by mail-ww0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 14so1347496wwi.21 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.181.193 with SMTP id l43mr2637558wem.78.1287252503132; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l14sm3789798weq.35.2010.10.16.11.08.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 16 Oct 2010 11:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CB9EA14.50407@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:08:20 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ References: <70c95ba0-9cc9-4639-8e30-5e486d25cf2b@q3g2000pra.googlegroups.com> <9572835c-55f6-4644-be9b-dd9601570d8d@m35g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <4CB90A9A.3050302@gmail.com> <4CB9C5DE.9030707@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 16/10/2010 16:50: > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:33 PM, And Rosta wrote: >> >> The satisfactoriness of "lo du'u Q kau zo'u" might depend on whether >> idiomaticity is compatible with Lojban principles. If not compatible, th= en a >> new construction is called for. > > A bigger problem may be that it only works for "ma kau", but not for > "mo kau ", "xo kau", etc, which can neither be put in a prenex by > themselves nor can they be assigned to a variable. > > Hmm... I may well be missing some key consideration, but the problem you describe = here seems more unfortunate than fatal. My reasoning is as follows. Take _xo_, for example. In an ideal world, one would like there to be not o= nly _xo_ but also a bindable variable variety of PA, so that one can say th= ings like "For every cukta x mei, x is greater than 5" =3D "every group of = books had a cardinality of more than 5", and "Ex nanmu x mei & ninmu x mei"= =3D "There were as many men as there were women", and so forth. Instead, t= o do this sort of stuff you have to find a method that circumvents the need= for PA -- a construction that means the same but uses KOhA instead. And wh= atever that method is, it could also be used instead of _xo_. _Xo (kau/pau)= _ would remain merely a shorthand for that circumlocutory construction in c= ases where the variable is bound in the innermost prenex (for _xo kau_) or = the outermost prenex within the scope of a rogative illocutionary operator = (for _xo (pau)_). To recast that more succinctly, the problem of interrogatives reduces to a = subtype of the problem of bindable variables. A solution to the larger prob= lem is needed, and that solution will generalize to its subtypes. Of course, there are additional considerations of elegance, avoidance of ve= rboseness, etc., but you can't address those additional considerations with= out creating new words and constructions. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.