From bpfk-list+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC4iqLmBBoE0FnOCA@googlegroups.com Wed Oct 27 13:02:20 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBCCL-0003F7-47; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:02:19 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf584208wyb.16 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:02:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yx4OSHapfj1cbXEdnwvAVnWvzlOTS58ROwmFmXk+utw=; b=b1FX1RsltWYuHRLNTL7cxpP9QcrB0aIpi+A9oR1cJe7lUPNsmXy1raPEBeXnND220J Wk38gvbdYFe7nNEC6oy8Wndo2aQ/PgKg0x74HnjUpuQNRor7glSlHGon+67q+MN1+6YX ZHvWV6t/fO2Z6cu9ZC/z4cqLDhiHFZze2VuZM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BBhkzECgnMFyCCBd/OQIDsqGEd3aOw4kgbNiBRrvfGyilEmInm27NYHD8ewUze/4ks ivHxS879iZN815ihPjEipz5sE2fSybjOqOuRlfHln2I+k+2DXIe9ypIgIJGQFxrwK79A HcZaIsmaVUAKoWSDfkv5ptvf/7nffjJLS9SGw= Received: by 10.216.82.142 with SMTP id o14mr210574wee.27.1288209720333; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:02:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.3.19 with SMTP id 19ls445465wbl.3.p; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.75 with SMTP id b11mr464962wbw.17.1288209718912; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.75 with SMTP id b11mr464961wbw.17.1288209718886; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f176.google.com (mail-wy0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w33si53896wbd.2.2010.10.27.13.01.57; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.176; Received: by mail-wy0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 36so1215140wyg.7 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.138.21 with SMTP id y21mr979190wbt.38.1288209717395; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4CC87E6E.8060205@lojban.org> References: <201010260117.28780.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201010260927.37640.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201010270951.35522.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20101027174136.GD5643@mercury.ccil.org> <4CC87E6E.8060205@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:01:57 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] type-3 fu'ivla with different kinds of rafsi From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Robert LeChevalier wro= te: > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> >> I wish we could come to a consensus on this. On the one hand, I tend >> to agree with John in principle, on the other hand, these forms are >> already quite widespread in practice, and nobody but John (and, >> depending on the day, me) > > Me, too, for what my opinion is worth. =A0And very strongly at that. Nice to be on the same side of an argument for a change. > One of the key mods we made from TLI Loglan to Lojban was to eliminate th= e > corresponding monosyllable CVVs, which in turn led us to add the apostrop= he > to the language. =A0Going back on that essentially removes the justificat= ion > for adding the apostrophe, That's basically my argument. I would have opposed the change if I had been there at the time, since introducing the apostrophe/x distinction seems worse than the problem you were trying to solve, but I don't see how we could go back on that at this point. > and fu'ivla are by intent NOT an important enough > part of the language to drive design. I actually argue from the opposite end. I consider fu'ivla a very important and ordinary part of the language, and therefore they should follow the same phonotactic constraints as the rest of the words of the language. That's why I don't care for consonantal syllables either, which were introduced specifically for type-3 fu'ivla, since they don't occur in cmavo/gismu/lujvo. > I dunno about you, but I cannot tell the difference between siV and ciV > because of palatalization. For me, those are easier than keeping plain c/j distinct. >=A0And IIRC, native speakers of languages without > an l/r distinction have especial problems with those letters followed by = iV > and uV diphthongs. > > We shouldn't be making the language harder to speak in order to make it > easier to coin fu'ivla (I'm sure Pierre disagrees, of course). Lojban phonology is hard for them anyway, with or without the CiV syllables. I just want phonotactics to be as consistent as possible across all words. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.