From bpfk-list+bncCN673cmqFBDLxKPmBBoEtP50Rg@googlegroups.com Wed Oct 27 19:39:24 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBIOd-0002OS-R9; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:24 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf2183450gwj.16 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pRYloY4I1qW5UuKuYNd7ZVMGKOxLpt0B4OaLPSYWZgE=; b=BkosLkhuuFJJCBZUzhF6zU0aQuDBkvKty7hutuuMhWKhLW+91hGcCHyruK3F3jOueu LifVl94i/23zTkN9cRO6imP+CymOheubjO6td7DXPftLkvrOR967BvrgianQWq5mq2jF XGyIi9y0DIbSEwKec5sKIuKAqy2fYT0joSmpA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=7EgxZsPuOuR92Mogd8XlkscKnhlUNMMjwl6RWysiqXpvYwu3iQ8cS13V5z/vwPIv0H yzVunNEf68E7UyDsK9gO0BhTU9JRrkso+5/B2yHAyZsYQM91fxmA57ZQqXoiGt4+ARha dIj4SkOgIl0NcPEdxfIM9VxlElGKc3ONKdqkU= Received: by 10.101.1.7 with SMTP id d7mr480686ani.7.1288233547231; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.28.24 with SMTP id f24ls504154anj.0.p; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.190.19 with SMTP id n19mr4286727anf.25.1288233546893; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.190.19 with SMTP id n19mr4286726anf.25.1288233546880; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao106.cox.net (eastrmmtao106.cox.net [68.230.240.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id d34si162560and.11.2010.10.27.19.39.06; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.48; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20101028023906.ZFJV24165.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:39:06 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id Q2f51f00J3Xcbvq022f54B; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:39:06 -0400 X-VR-Score: -130.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Of5FRk7D4fcJlrWbzxPvWNsT1UhKEYt7m7ky24PLP4c= c=1 sm=1 a=VjtRSD_9mBwA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=fBiEg01g1-pcke5sEWcA:9 a=drsy6NQQaC66hYSUiy_SSszJr7IA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4CC8E246.5060306@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:39:02 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] type-3 fu'ivla with different kinds of rafsi References: <201010260117.28780.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201010260927.37640.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201010270951.35522.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20101027174136.GD5643@mercury.ccil.org> <4CC87E6E.8060205@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.48 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > That's basically my argument. I would have opposed the change if I had > been there at the time, since introducing the apostrophe/x distinction > seems worse than the problem you were trying to solve, but I don't see > how we could go back on that at this point. Blame Tommy and Gary Burgess, who convinced me that "x" and its voiced=20 counterpart are common in the world's languages, even if not found in=20 English (we almost ended up having both the voiced and unvoiced sounds,=20 but making the voiced sound in clusters was beyond me). ' was never supposed to be a full consonantal sound, but rather to have=20 just enough noticeable airflow to not be a glottal stop (which is its=20 intended contrast, not x), and probably shorter than a typical Lojban=20 consonant. But it proved so much easier to teach by equating it to the=20 "h" that English speakers thought the sound was, that we eventually gave=20 up. I'm not skilled at languages myself, and trying to teach a=20 distinction I can't easily make myself was too difficult. lojbab --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist?hl=3Den.